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RedHat to KDE: ''Do as I say, not as I do.''

By Timothy R. Butler
Editor-in-Chief, Open for Business
July 29, 2002, 23:44:50 EDT

Desktop Computing It started seemingly innocuously enough; a letter was received by one member of the KDE development team asking the KDE Project to use RedHat Linux on machines at LWCE and to display RedHat's shadow man logo on those machines. In exchange, the letter from RedHat explained, KDE would "benefit from many valuable marketing benefits in our booth, on our website, and in our newsletter."

UPDATE (7/30/2002 15:21 and 16:04 EDT): New information from RedHat is available at the bottom of this article.

Interested, but a bit concerned due to RedHat's track record with KDE, the developer, Charles Samuels, wrote into a KDE mailing list for opinions on the offer. After a heated discussion, of which many participants had already been burnt by the distribution's disinterest in KDE, Samuels came up with a compromise.

In his message back to RedHat's Tommy Mann, he said the KDE Project would take the offer if RedHat would provide a system for the KDE booth to show KDE on RedHat with and the company would demonstrate KDE in its own booth. Those in the mailing list discussion were pleased with this, and overall it sounded like a good way to improve relations between the two groups.

This also seemed to be an offer still in RedHat's favor. After all, with many of KDE's core developers being on the payroll for competitors SuSE or MandrakeSoft, agreeing to show a system from a company that does little for the project may be regarded negatively by those companies that are actually helping.

Curiously, RedHat's Mann wrote back saying they would not provide a system or even demo KDE in their booth. Much like a telemarketer, Mann continued by essentially repeating his original message, noting that if KDE would use RedHat it would have its name listed on a sign at RedHat's booth. The KDE logo, however, would not be displayed on the RedHat sign unless KDE completely switched to RedHat systems.

This begs the question what exactly was RedHat thinking? They ask for KDE to do them a favor and rather then do KDE a favor in return that would also serve to promote RedHat, they refuse? Worse, insult was added to injury, since apparently RedHat was not even comfortable being seen with KDE running in their booth.

Naturally, this move created no goodwill for the North Carolina-based company in the KDE community. Samuels responded by calmly noting what other less moderating viewpoints had said when he had initially asked the KDE community about the offer. Then he summed up his point by saying "I feel I returned to you a very reasonable offer... I find your active lack of support for KDE harmful to the entire Linux world, an opinion shared by many, many, others."

Shortly thereafter, in another response sent to RedHat, KDE Dot News editor Navindra Umanee wrote "I find it amazing that KDE has to 'participate' in your 'program' to get a slight mention in your booth, when you even refuse to even display KDE running on Red Hat in your booth or provide a running, packaged, version of the latest KDE on Red Hat." He continued "I find it shameful that you should engage in market-speak double-talk with the KDE project, a community-based Open Source project that is providing you with millions of lines of free code in the form of the best Free Desktop suite available for Unix and that you don't even have the decency to properly support or acknowledge the contribution."

At press time, Open for Business was unaware of any response by Mann or others at RedHat concerning this PR disaster. It does, however, raise an interesting question of what the software vendor hopes to accomplish with its continuing near boycotting of KDE.

While the leading Linux distributor has warmed up to KDE somewhat, finally including the desktop in the 6.x releases a few years ago, its support continues to be poor. Many RedHat specific KDE bugs have been ignored by the company for multiple releases, and KDE's minor bug-fix releases almost never receive official upgrade packages for RedHat Linux.

As RedHat's might is considerably weaker in the desktop segment, with its preferred desktop (GNOME) taking only about 20% of the desktop market versus KDE's over 50%, they would be wise to change course. While it has never taken the desktop as seriously as other vendors such as MandrakeSoft, why RedHat would burn bridges with a project that presents a serious threat to the Microsoft desktop monopoly - and thus is a guarantor of continued RedHat desktop and server sales - is a mystery.

Vadim Plessky, another KDE developer, also wrote RedHat, noting "[the] strategy used by Mr.Mann ... is definitly [sic] out order, even for traditional (closed-source) software, or hardware company." Plessky concluded with a potential result of such action, saying "You are making [a] wrong move with such [an] attitude to KDE, which will result in [an] even further drop in market share for RedHat Linux. While being at 70% market share 2-3 years ago, RedHat hardly enjoys more than 25% marketshare nowdays."

Only time will tell if this prediction will come true, but if RedHat continues with similar actions through out the community, it may end up alienating its support base. Neither this nor its refusal to fully support KDE bode well for the company.

UPDATE (7/30/2002 15:21 EDT): Contrary to what Mr. Mann said to the KDE Project, the company will be demonstrating KDE in its booth at LWCE according to RedHat's Todd Barr. This is excellent news which we hope will be the first step in remedying the larger KDE/RedHat problems noted here and elsewhere.

UPDATE (7/30/2002 16:04 EDT): In a continuing stream of good news, Todd Bar contacted one of KDE's representitives saying RedHat would provide a system to demo KDE on RedHat with. Rob Kaper, one of the KDE developers who will be at the show, responded excitedly "This is very generous of them and shows that Red Hat is willing to put effort in cooperating with KDE, which is a good thing." It is certainly great to see such a good ending come out of this event.

For more information:


Timothy R. Butler is Editor-in-Chief of Open for Business. You can reach him at tbutler@uninetsolutions.com.

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Re: RedHat to KDE: ''Do as I say, not as I do.'' (Score: 1)
by Vis (mylapy@guzik.org) on July 30, 2002, 01:47:25 EDT
(User Info | Send a Message) http://
I installed several RedHat versions including 7.0, 7.1, 7.2 on different sorts of hardware, each time when I tried to run KDE it would crash the server. Now I understand, RH is sabotaging it in some deliberate way. How else can you expalin it? Tell me if I'm wrong, but that wasn't just my experience, my friends also complained about it. So, before we know it RH will try aggresive antics that M$ is famous for. Did you notice their stock is getting lower and lower despite the recent rebound in the markets? They have to worry now about surviving.


[ Reply to This ]

Funny, I don't think Mandrake or SuSE would have a problem... (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 06:17:39 EDT
...with running KDE in their booths... (-:

The thing that counts is that they would also be happy running Gnome, FluxBox, Enlightenment, Fvwm2, whatever... they haven't been taken over by marketroids (Mandrake shrugged theirs off last year, and SuSE haven't quite succumbed - although United Linux may fix that).


[ Reply to This ]

Simple: Boycott Redhat in favor of pro-KDE distributions (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 09:21:25 EDT
Who cares if they're the biggest Linux distributor. Or as is possibly the case, was the biggest distributor.

If they're going to play these baiting games, then show them how they truly look in the eyes of the informed: Don't buy their products, and be vocal about the reasons why.

Mandrake, SUSE, Gentoo, Sorcerer, and many others all of which are arguably better setups than Redhat anyway -For desktops at least.

Redhat's constantly been focuses on the server market, and therefore has more or less ignored any of us who want to use Linux for more. Now that they're seeing this as a losing strategy, they're trying to bully the little guysi nto doing what they want -Much like a certain bully named Microsoft.

Linux isn't going away if Redhat does... They're not synonomous(SP?).

Show Redhat what you think of such tactics: Hit them in their wallet by putting your money and efforts with a more consumer oriented distribution.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: RedHat to KDE: ''Do as I say, not as I do.'' (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 09:21:26 EDT
What the heck is wrong with the folks at Redhat? Their behavior is highly questionable............maybe they are taking ques from Bill.

It is a shame Redhat thinks they have to take such a position with open source. So what is next with them? Are they now going to badger other open source projects in the same way?

Rehat should be TAKING THEIR HAT OFF to the open source community.....after all if it was not for them Redhat would not have a noggin to set on.


[ Reply to This ]

RH's problem are its developers... (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 09:22:21 EDT
I live in Raleigh, NC and adopted linux 4 years ago. I was very happy that such a high profile 'linux' co existed in my backyard, so to speak, hoping plenty of employment opportunities will present themselves.

I had occasions to meet RH developers in the early days of its existence when they would do presentations of linux to the public- I was immediately turned off. The developers are characterized by a rabid hatred of m$ and as I found later, hatred of anything non-redhat in flavour.

Unfortunately, the co. is developer-driven due to its nature and the developers have personalities of high-school script kiddies with inadequate customer skills and are completely untuned to the market. SO rabid are these people that they allegedly forced their admins/receptionists/secretaries ( totally non-techies) to use RH linux over their preference of alternatives ( like windows). SOme of these admins vented their frustration in local papers after resigning in anguish.

The REAL reason for RH's attitude towards KDE is gnome and the fact that its a RH creation, mostly. The reason that RH EXPLICITLY denies reiserfs during installation and pushes ext3 as a J.F.S. is the same- its RH's !

ANd the reason I do not use gnome and ext3 ( besides the fact that they are vastly inferior to the alternatives in the market) is clear from above.

I do not believe I can work in a place where the sole existence of the people is hatred of m$, even though they have done very little to influence or hurt m$ yet.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: RedHat to KDE: ''Do as I say, not as I do.'' (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 09:43:36 EDT
Remember guy's this is only the comment from one man. And I know the man is supposed to represent the company's interest but i think rather here that this man is making a mistake, and it is not Red Hat's intention (as a distro) to insult the KDE project like this man does.

Please look at the big picture


[ Reply to This ]

Re: RedHat to KDE: ''Do as I say, not as I do.'' (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 09:49:36 EDT
All this talk of RedHat behaving unreasonably...

Are we forgetting how dim-whitted the KDE developer community behaved back in the pre-QT-GPL-compatability days? It's no wonder why RedHat is loathed to work on equal terms with the KDE freaks.


[ Reply to This ]

Folks at RedHat use KDE (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 10:05:38 EDT
Ever since a RedHat instructor (RH 133) showed me KDE, I've been hooked, running KDE on RedHat with no issues. RedHat 7.3 ships with KDE 3.0 and its been a charm to use. Yes, this is a blunder for RedHat, but lets not drag out the M$ comarisons over this. They have chosen to support Gnome over KDE, but they don't bear any ill will towards it.


[ Reply to This ]

What's the problem? (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 10:19:43 EDT
I don't see a problem. RedHat asked politely that it's logo not be used as KDE's background, most likely, so as not to confuse the people into thinking KDE was representing RedHat. It might have done the same thing for any other company. As a good gesture, it offered to put in a few good words about KDE. KDE rejected the request (which is okay as long as they weren't willfully trying to confuse people) and made a counter-proposal -- to promote KDE in RedHat's booth (which would cause even more confusion). RedHat naturally rejected it. That's it! No scare tactics. No threats. RedHat didn't try to close down the booth or remove the logo while KDErs were away from their booth.

I don't see how KDE was mistreated, but I do see how KDE is making an ass of itself. If anything, RedHat deserves an apology.

As for the poor KDE support, what on earth are they talking about? It's better than their GNOME support! Red Hat always ships with the latest and greatest KDE while it tends to stick to old versions of GNOME. Even when it eventually catches up with the current GNOME, it's setup is nowhere near as useful as Ximian GNOME. KDE and GNOME support are both poor, but that's because RedHat has been focusing on the server, not the desktop. The current RedHat Beta indicates that they're starting to be interested in the desktop.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: RedHat to KDE: ''Do as I say, not as I do.'' (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 10:52:59 EDT
I responded to RH's marketing techniques by moving to Mandrake.
Mandrake is totally GPL and even includes a 3 CD ISO for download at the same time they release their 7 CD boxed version. Their loyalty to the Linux community cannot be better expressed than by that act.


[ Reply to This ]

Mountain out of a molehill (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 12:57:03 EDT
"In his message back to RedHat's Tommy Mann, he said the KDE Project would take the offer if RedHat would provide a system for the KDE booth to show KDE on RedHat with and the company would demonstrate KDE in its own booth. "

From Samuels:
"I've been told that I can agree to this offer if present at the redhat booth is KDE."

From Mann:
"Unfortunately, the Red Hat booth has no openings left in the booth this late in the game."

Where does Samuels ask RedHat to demo KDE? Most likely, his statement was interpreted as a request for KDE people to be in the RedHat booth. Why should KDE developers feel slighted for not getting preferential treatment from a stupid logo swap marketing ploy? Do people think KDE was the only exhibitor to get this e-mail?

It seems to me that RedHat's only mistake, aside from spamming exhibitors, was having a marketing guy who was unaware of the bad feelings that the KDE community has toward RedHat, and who didn't know that they would blow this out of proportion into some big attempt to strongarm KDE into running RedHat.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: RedHat to KDE: ''Do as I say, not as I do.'' (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 13:01:07 EDT
Really, Redhat should just put the KDE logo up after requesting it from the KDE people. The KDE people don't make any money from it being up at the Redhat booth, but Redhat gains from having a desktop system that alot of people use.

For them to call the KDE folks and offer them a sales pitch seems ludicrous to me.

Dan


[ Reply to This ]

KDE clearly not in touch with the commercial world (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 13:21:33 EDT
If anything, this exchange demonstrates that the KDE folks are not at all in touch with the commercial computing world. The kind of cross-promotion that Red Hat offered is common. Red Hat tried to treat KDE with equal footing as other third-party software vendors, and KDE came back with a you-owe-us attitude. Open source developers give up their you-owe-us rights when they release their products as open source. It's the nature of the game. KDE is just sour grapes.


[ Reply to This ]

Just one more reason.... (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 19:07:30 EDT
....for me to stay away from RedHat now. I've disliked them since the 7.0 series ever since they've switched to that crappy 2.96 compiler.
In the end if you wan't a system built right you have to do it yourself.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: RedHat to KDE: ''Do as I say, not as I do.'' (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on July 30, 2002, 20:27:32 EDT
Charles Samuels and Neil Stevens are rather noted for their propensity to wildly overstate their case. It is little wonder that this issue is blown out of proportion when Charles or Neil are spearheading the discussion.

It took Kurt Granroth's intervention with a Redhat representative to sort this issue out. I'm rather unimpressed with the behaviour of these two developers. They on occasion proclaim that KDE will stand on its own without any kind of marketing, yet have the gall to be offended when they put their foot into it. They don't understand the diplomacies of interaction outside of the hacker culture and don't get marketing. I hope that they learn something from this and I hope that the KDE community (users, developers, etc) learn to move on when these two clowns blow smoke about some non-event such as this.

Kudos to Kurt Granroth for soothing the waters!


[ Reply to This ]

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