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Miscellaneous: The Toshiba Standoff
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 by Adam Kosmin
Printer Friendly Page  Send this Article to a Friend

Other Software A disgruntled laptop buyer demands an OS refund and is told "see you in court".

Many others have fought this battle in the past, but my education into the specifics of Microsoft's monopoly began a little over a month ago when I became interested in a Toshiba Portege 2000. While customizing the laptop with a sales representative at 1-800-TOSHIBA, I inquired as to whether I could purchase the device with no operating system installed. This question seemed to confuse the salesperson, who needed to pass the question on to a supervisor. Eventually, I was told that I could not purchase the hardware without a copy of Microsoft's OS pre-installed and this stipulation was not open to negotiation. At this point, I realized that on some level my rights as a consumer were being violated. I knew I needed to take a step back and educate myself before continuing this conversation. Here is what I found out:

(Taken from the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional End User License Agreement)

YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND.

After spending a few days researching other people's similar situations when dealing with these OEMs, it became clear to me that I was not going to be allowed to order a piece of hardware without a bundled OS. I would have to exercise my rights as defined in the EULA if I wanted justice. I called 1-800-TOSHIBA again to place my order for my new Portege 2000. Because I wanted to exercise my rights as defined by the Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional EULA, I confirmed with my sales representative that this OS was to be pre-installed on the system before I committed myself to the sale. Additionally, in an effort to be proactive, I informed a supervisor in the office that I would be pursuing this refund.

The laptop arrived sometime during the first week of August. After taking special care to leave the bundled software media (and associated documentation) in it's original packaging, I plugged in the laptop, connected the USB floppy drive, inserted a floppy disk and performed a network install of Red Hat Linux 7.3.

The following is a history (cleaned up a bit for readability) of the e-mail thread I have since engaged in with John Smithson of Toshiba America Information Systems, Inc. (TAIS):

Subject: re: License To: akosmin@nyp.org From:
CSD.Customer.Service@tais.toshiba.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:15:59
-0700

Adam ,

please send me your complaint.

Thank you,


John Smithson 800-272-0569x4034

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:55:00 -0400 From: "Adam Kosmin"
 To: Adam Kosmin 
	, CSD.Customer.Service@tais.toshiba.com
CC: akosmin@nyp.org Subject: Re: License (Correct Version)


John,
	I sent the wrong license. Here's the correct attachment and
	snippet
from Windows 2000 Professional.

***********************************************************************
YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY
INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE PRODUCT. IF
YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU
MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND.
***********************************************************************



Please note, that upon receiving the laptop, I inserted a Linux boot disk
and formatted the contents of the hard drive. This means that I never
accepted the terms of any End User License Agreement (EULA) that would
have been presented. I did not install, copy, download, access, or
use the software and therefore, am requesting a full refund as well
as instructions (if any) on how to return the unused product. Also,
please note that when I say "product", I am not speaking of the laptop
but rather the software as defined in the EULA.

Thanks, Adam Kosmin

Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="EULA.TXT"

Subject: re: License To: akosmin@nyp.org From:
CSD.Customer.Service@tais.toshiba.com Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:22:06
-0700

Adam Kosmin,

I have received the following regarding your complaint.  Please consider
this as an answer to your question.

"The Master EULA (C1192-4) is a standard item on all BOMs, shipping with
all units. It is part of the documentation set inside the pizza box,
which means it is shrink-wrapped along with the Resource Guide, Warranty
booklet, etc.  However, now that we moved away from the pizza box to a
"pouch", it is may or may not be in a separately shrink wrapped package
inside the pouch.

It is a single half sheet of paper, printed on one side. The language
referred to is in capital letters in the 1st paragraph from the Master
EULA copied below for your convenience.


Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the separate terms provided
by the Software supplier, TAIS does not accept the return of component
parts, or bundled Software, which have been removed from the TAIS
hardware product.  Pro-rata refunds on individual PC components, or
bundled Software, including the operating system, will not be granted."


Thank you for your inquiry,

Sincerely,

John Smithson

Case Manager

Customer Relations

800-272-0569 x 4034



Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:33:36 -0400 From: "Adam Kosmin"
 To: CSD.Customer.Service@tais.toshiba.com Cc:
akosmin@nyp.org Subject: Re: License X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.1claws
(GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-redhat-linux)

John,
	This is totally unacceptable. If I do not receive instructions
	on how to collect the reimbursement for my unused software by
	the end of the week, I will start filing my complaints with the
	Federal Trade Commission.
Please note that my complaints will target Toshiba since the license
clearly defines the manufacturer as being the party who is responsible
to provide this refund. It is clear to me that you have not actually
read the EULA and you have just forwarded me a generic response from
your Microsoft contact. Again, I must remind you that your company is
violating the terms of this license. I will not accept this reply.

Adam Kosmin

Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:53:21 -0400 From: "Adam Kosmin"
 To: CSD.Customer.Service@tais.toshiba.com Cc:
akosmin@nyp.org Subject: Re: License

John,
	In your last email, you pointed out the Master End User License
	Agreement. I have found the copy of the agreement in my "pizza
	box" and offer the following observations...


*** taken from the MEULA *******

IMPORTANT: Use of any software or any related documentation (collectively,
"software") preinstalled on, or shipped with a TAIS hardware product
or otherwise made available to you by TAIS in whatever form or media,
will constitute your acceptance of these terms.

********************************

Well, looks like I was able to avoid that trap since (as explained
earlier) I haven't used any software or any related documentation. My
legal foothold just keeps getting stronger and stronger with every
rebuttal that Toshiba offers. The bottom line here is simply that Toshiba
cannot bind me to terms that I did not agree to. As stated earlier, I am
giving Toshiba until the end of the week to provide me with instructions
on how to collect the refund I am entitled to. If I do not receive an
appropriate response by that time, I will file my complaint with the
Federal Trade Commission and take this to a lawyer.

Best, Adam Kosmin

Subject: Toshiba License Agreement To: adk9001@nyp.org From:
CSD.Customer.Service@tais.toshiba.com Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:59:33
-0700

Dear Adam,

I have relayed your message to the Legal Dept.	They have replied below.

The user has two chances to return the system. [The user accepts the
license when]

1.    The user first sees a shrink wrap label on the computer baggie,
reads about Toshiba's policy regarding no pro-rata returns, ignores the
written policy, and tears off the shrink wrap label.

On the plastic baggie that contains the notebook there is a shrink wrap
label that reads substantially as follows:


Toshiba America Information Systems, Inc. (TAIS) currently sells personal
computers with a Microsoft Windows operating system pre-installed, based
on general customer demand.  In order to maintain the highest quality
standards under the Toshiba brand name, TAIS is committed to delivering
computing solutions to the customer as a total PC system.

TAIS does not accept the return of component parts, or bundled software,
which have been removed from the PC system.  Pro-rata refunds on
individual PC components or bundled software, including the operating
system, will not be granted.

If you wish to return a complete PC system, contact the TAIS dealer where
you purchased the product, and comply with the dealer's standard return
policies and procedures.

Sincerely,

John Smithson Case Manager Customer Relations 800-272-0569x4034

This was the final e-mail exchange between John Smithson and myself. On Tuesday, September 3, 2002, I called him and explained that I was not satisfied with the position Toshiba had taken. He replied, "see you in court".

Along with filing my complaint with the Federal Trade Commission that same day, I am charging Toshiba Corporation with making a conscious decision to deny me the refund I am entitled to for my unopened and unused copy of Windows 2000 Professional. Additionally, I am charging Toshiba with trying to strong arm me into accepting unwanted product through the use of additional licenses that make broad assumptions about my acceptance when, in fact, I never consciously made any effort to forfeit my rights regarding this refund. Although I am not a lawyer, my instincts tell me that Toshiba's "little sticky label" and MEULA violates article 2 of the UCC, which states:

2-204. Formation in General (1) A contract for sale of goods may be made in any manner sufficient to show agreement, including conduct by both parties which recognizes the existence of such a contract.

My take on this is that both parties need to know they are entering into a contract for it to be worth anything at the end of the day. Toshiba's MEULA does not disclose to the user the opportunity to enter into any such agreement. Rather, it wrongfully interprets a totally unrelated (but yet predictable) action made by the user as acceptance of an offer that may never have been reviewed.

In closing, I have a few questions for the community:

1. Has anyone actually gotten refund program this work? I would appreciate hearing about your experiences, and I promise to post them (with your permission) so that others can benefit and gain additional insight.

2. Are there any law students who would like to explore this situation for a research project or school assignment and publish their results? I can only imagine how cheap law school would seem if enough momentum was created and a class action lawsuit was won that once and for all rid the world of this violation against consumer rights.




"Miscellaneous: The Toshiba Standoff" | Login/Create an Account | 120 comments
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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
When I read this stories, I think it is a old news. I read similar one 4 years ago.

There is a old website called "Windows Refund Center Home Page" (http://linuxmall.com/refund/)

Also there is refund news: http://zork.net/refund/issueone.html

And for a sucessful refund story:
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html

Go luck.
Lee


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
While I'm in favor of anything that reduces Microsoft's stranglehold on the desktop, doesn't this really boil down to whether or not Toshiba can be bound by the terms of Microsoft's EULA? Microsoft is telling you that the Toshiba is responsible for giving you a refund. Did Toshiba agree to that when they signed their contract with Microsoft? If you can find that agreement, you will have a solid legal basis for your claim. Without that, you can still prevail if you can show that Toshiba (and their responsible parties) had prior knowledge of the MS EULA when they sold you the software. Since it's a safe bet that they all own Windows and have, either consciously or tacitly, accepted the MS EULA on their personal computers, you should have a case.
<

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
It is admirable that someone is willing to go so far to expose a manufacturer which is not only deserting their responsibilities to the customer, but also effectively enforcing Microsoft's monopoly without having the guts to admit it.

Of course, the other tactic which manufacturers tend to understand is the market's collective decision not to buy their products. Unfortunately, due to "market demand", Linux users don't yet have enough power to make a significant difference here, and by the time they do, I suppose Toshiba will have rolled over and be "the community's best friend". I'd love to be proved wrong, though.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Have you considered small claims court? No need for an attorney there (in fact, I'm not sure attornies are allowed). If Toshiba doesn't show, you'll probably get a summary judgement in your favor.

Of course, IANALOASCCE (I Am Not A Lawyer Or A Small Claims Court Expert).


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
I have an interesting question. If the EULA is violated by the software supplier (in this case, Microsoft and Toshiba, for refusing to provide refunds as specified in the EULA) does that not mean that the EULA is no longer valid? Could a person who honestly tried to get a refund, with documented proof, now break all the terms (except the default copyright of course), such as reverse engeineering, posting bench marks / whatever else the EULA now forbids you to do?


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Regarding Comment #1, this is not old news simply because the condition still exists. What happened to the stance that our community took back in 99'? The links mentioned in the reply are known yes, but they're dead. We need to start this fight all over again and not let our gaurd down this time.

Adam Kosmin


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Have you contacted the EFF or the Open Software Foundation for legal input? At the very least, maybe one of them can see to it that your experience is brought to the attention of the judge in the MS monopoly case, as an example of the harm to consumers and vendors caused by an illegal monopoly.


[ Reply to This ]

Toshiba (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Heh. I don't own one piece of Toshiba equipment. Never will. Sorry, but a company that sold US sub secrets to USSR during the cold war will not get my money.

From http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1989_cr/h890413-spy.htm :

Toshiba illegally exported to the Soviet Union sophisticated machine tools needed to manufacture advanced submarine propellers. This sale enabled the USSR to reduce dramatically the noise signatures associated with its undersea forces, making vastly more difficult the anti-submarine warfare missions of allied navies. The cost to the West of restoring the status quo ante is estimated to be in the tens of billions of dollars.
I suppose I should relent now that the cold war is over .... naaah.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Yes, it's a sad state of affairs. Yes, the community in general thinks it's unfair. No, you won't get anywhere with Toshiba. Take your money and buy someone else's equipment. What should matter to you more is not using your hard earned money to support one of the many cogs in the Microsoft machine.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Well Adam,

You have, through your correspondence with Toshiba, depicted very well that "Toshiba is interested in your money, but does not have any conception of Customer Care". Fighting companies that can bring Millions of Dollars forward in their defense, typical Government Corruption where the almighty Dollar can move judgement from what we know to be right to what the signer of the check wants, is a fact of life.

If I were in your shoes, I would probably do both Toshiba and Microsoft a favor and "Promote" them by giving them as much press as humanly possible. Simply publicize the FACTS, and let people know what type of Companies they are dealing with. In my company we have 17 people who are current Toshiba customers. All

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Pennington v. Microsoft & Compaq (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Letters were sent to MS & Compaq (HP). Both denied the claim, and suit was filed in the Superior Court for California (Chula Vista, CA). Trial is set for 10/7/02 (Case #SS122214).

If you are eligible for a refund, and have not received a refund for the unused Microsoft OS, please email me at
w underscore pennington at yahoo dot com



[ Reply to This ]

Not sure about this... (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
I think fighting the MS tax is a worthy goal, but in this situation it's not that clear to me that you've really got a case.

If Toshiba's shrinkwrap "policy" on pro-rata refunds given in Smithson's final reply holds any legal water (and I don't know the answer to this since IANAL), you definitely agreed to it by breaking the seal on the shrinkwrapped laptop, regardless of whether you read anything else. So it seems like by opening the laptop you've indicated that you understand that the refund thing is all or nothing. The sensible thing to do would to have been to return it and vote with your wallet by buying a laptop from a Linux friendly company.

Anyway, if you haven't already, I would definitely consult a lawyer before sinkin

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
First: IANAL.

The terms of the OEM contract may be dispicable. They might be illegal (although it may vary from state to state.) But you are unlikely to prevail on contract law.

You keep talking about a contract with Toshiba. But what is the one contract that you are a party to that actually exists? (Contract: meeting of the minds, exchange of money, goods, or services.) Hint: what does your invoice say?

Most likely it says that you bought a Portege 2000 with this and that (and a license for Windows 2000) for $xxxx. 1 item (shipping and tax may be extra.)

Toshiba's and Microsoft's position on "YOU
MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND" is that you may return exactly w

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
You didn't mention what state you are from. I would forward a copy of your complaint to the state's Attorney General, especially if it is one of the 9 holdout states! I think that small claims is your best solution because it is not economical for Toshiba to send an attorney to represent them. Once you have your judgement then pursue a lein against their closest American factory, sales center, etc..

Regards,
Tres


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Another comment: If they mailed the system through the United States Postal System then they have committed a Federal felony called mail fraud. You can pursue this with your postmaster at the local post office or throught The Postmaster General in Washington DC.

Again ... Regards,
Tres


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Buy a "whitebox" laptop. Many mom-n-pop shops can order laptops from companies like ASUS. They shouldn't have any problem selling you equipment without the hidden cost of windows.

Go Mom-n-Pop...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
I bought a laptop from Toshiba two years ago. The shrink wrap package the laptop itself was in was sealed with a red label which clearly stated that by opening the package you accept all software licenses etc. ( You can argue that you can't have accepted a license you haven't seen, but that's totally different )

I am 100% against the microsoft monopoly on laptops/pcs you buy from vendors like Toshiba, but I think especially Toshiba, covers their asses pretty well and there is pretty much nothing to talk about here.

Also another thing that I noticed from the article is that you keep mentinoning that the Microsoft EULA stated this and that but you ignore any attempt on Toshiba'a part to explain their EULA which you have accepted b

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Que Poca #$#@@ ..... son una mafia Micosoft y Toshiba suerte en tu caso vale enviarle tu a caso a FSF


[ Reply to This ]

Re: Thanks everyone (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
I want to thank everyone that has contributed to this topic throughout the day. Although I don't agree with some of the views that have been expressed (especially from the poster who I believe is a Toshiba employee), I welcome this discussion and have received quite a bit of assistance and support overall. I think it's important for us to remember that this issue is centered around what constitutes an acceptable course of disclosure. The issue is not whether or not there was an MEULA present that superseeds an EULA, the issue is whether or not WE as customers are NOTIFIED of the existance of this MEULA so that we can review it's terms and make an informed decision. Had I ever made a conscious decision to release my rights to claim the refund for the unused M

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
I doubt you will win this case, but the effort is worthwhile.

Remember that knowledge is power... At some point in the future you, and some of those reading this, may be in a position to influence a substantial purchase that Toshiba is being considered for. A simple comment like "Toshiba, eh? Bad choice; I'd go with Dell" will cost them more over time than all the lawsuits that could result from this, combined.

Someone earlier in the thread suggested voting with your wallet. That's a good idea, but a corporate wallet has a bigger impact on future earnings. One large corporation I worked for completely banned the purchase of Toshiba equipment based on feedback received from employees. Toshiba lost the sales of several thou

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Some lyrics for Adam:

I am I, Don Quixote,
The Lord of LaMancha,
My destiny calls, and I go!
And the wild winds of fortune
Shall carry me onward ... To wither so ever they blow ...
Wither so ever they blow ...
Onward to glory I go!



[ Reply to This ]

Buy from QLITech (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
The best way to fight this is to not buy their products. There are a number of companies that sell systems preinstalled with Linux. I bought a laptop from QLITech the summer of 2001 ans it's been as good or better than the Dell's and Toshiba's here at work.

If we all just "vote with our feet" TPTB will notice.



[ Reply to This ]

Re: Class Action Lawsuit pending... (Score: 1)
by akosmin on Thursday, September 12, 2002
(User Info | Send a Message) http://
If you feel that you are entitled to a refund for your unused Microsoft OS, please contact Walt Pennington at w_penningtonATyahoo.com

I have already had the pleasure of speaking with Walt this afternoon and am very impressed with both his passion and commitment on this issue.

Best,
Adam Kosmin


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
I think that this is an issue that has gone on too long without a proper response from the community of computer owners. Microsoft and all their corporate buddies have done a terrific job of ramming all this Windows garbage down our throats for way too long, and brainwashing a large number of people into thinking they have no choice, (when they buy a desktop/laptop), but to use the conveniently bundled and installed Microsoft software. It's time for people to be made aware of their options and rights, and for the community to rally up and be heard!! Ultimately we have the power, why not take it back from them and open some eyes in the process.
Keep up with the fight Adam.
Matt


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
F*CK Toshiba!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
I say good luck. I hope you win. I will offer one observation. An unusual quirk in the Law of Agency that has been consistently held by the courts goes along the following lines:

A firm acting as an exclusive agent for a supplier is presumed to be acting in behalf of that supplier regardless of any arms length protestations to the contrary. Therefore unless otherwise notified in writing, to the customer, the agent is presumed to be acting in concert with and as like the supplier itself.

The rationale the courts have applied presume that such an exclusive relationship was entered into for either competitive advantage or preferential gain. As such the agent is presumed to have entered into this arrangement with full knowledge of a

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Just sell it: (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Thursday, September 12, 2002
Check out Softman v. Adobe:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5628


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Friday, September 13, 2002
I really appriciate the stand u have taken. In India also I faced the same problem but I couldn't do anything. I am Linux fan thinking in this direction. It would be of great help if we can make this happen with all vendors to boost computers literacy. I think we can make it....
regards;
Ashish


[ Reply to This ]

  • Thank you by akosmin on Saturday, September 14, 2002
Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Friday, September 13, 2002
Re: Why is Microsoft able to do this?

There are huge number of people (the majority?)
who care not for choice; either in Computers or Governments. They don't know or care which is "better", but what is "average" and easy. They *pay* Toshiba to make this selection for them and as the old saying goes, the more they pay the "better" they think they got. For example, here in the U.S. citizens *pay* their Government to do trivial tasks so they don't have to think about them, though it often the most expensive and inefficient way to do it.

Toshiba is simply doing what they are paid to do; deliver the best *average* system for *average* users.

IGNORE the average; in fact, take advantage of them by buying their com

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: Are you near NYC and buying a new system? (Score: 1)
by akosmin (akosminATnyp.org) on Friday, September 13, 2002
(User Info | Send a Message) http://
I am working with some very special people within NYC's Linux community to create a "Windows Refund Day II" event and am searching for a candidate that would like to involve himself/herself. There are a few qualifying prerequisites that you should be aware of if you are interested in applying.

1. You should be in the market for a new system from a major OEM.

2. You want to run any OS on your new system other than the pre-installed Microsoft OS that comes bundled.

Here is a general overview of what we plan to see happen:

1. The candidate (this could be you) will purchase a new system by a major OEM and not open it until the date of this event.
2. On this day, you will bring the system to a pr

Read the rest of this comment...


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
I understand exactly what the author is going through. I did not fight against HP when I bought my HP8660C. They had pre-installed Microsofts OS on the box. I never ever used it (never booted into it even once). There was no recourse for getting a refund on the software. Any problems with the box were the 'Linux Problem'. Any solution to problems with the box involved restoring the 'original operating system'. It was bad enough HP put it on in the first place, bad enough not to offer a refund if people didn't want it, but worse that they insist people use it and put it back on when they don't want it. HP and Toshiba are typical.


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
good luck for you - i hope you will kick their ass and that they understand that consumers say what they want and need and not "just another company".


[ Reply to This ]

Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
Hi Adam,
I live in Belgium and here we have a law against wat we call "koppelverkoop " wich means the customer buy's an item and the seller say hey you need this one to.
I don't now about the States, but it's worth looking into it.
The laptop doesn't need to have "New " software. You could have an old full licence of M$ Os lying around. If the old pc is destroyed completely I think you can safely install this old M$ OS.
So I guess they can't force you to buy a new one.
Have luck Guy


[ Reply to This ]

Stay on top of this story (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
I've read all the comments on this one and the story too (obviously). This is very interesting and I hope The Linux Journal stays on top of it as it progresses.

Good stuff.


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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
You may want to look at the implied warranty that a product must be suitable for an intended use; and/or duress law.

Microsoft binds you to a number of terms, and some of those terms are rather quite draconian these days. But they are Microsoft's terms not Toshiba's. So Toshiba is 1) forcing you to bind to Microsofts terms (consipricy to commit duress - a felony in many US states) or 2) sold you a product which they knew was unsuitable for the intended purpose. The product states you can do a thing (an intended purpose) -- yet you are bound against doing it (unsuitable).

In the end, this is just more "creative law" that people like the FTC are charged with protecting against. I guess "freedom" is now defined as "what any tw

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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
I bought my laptop at http://www.jewelnotebooks.nl/ - you can choose if you want ot not the OS, and also see how much less it would cost without it .. in many shops while I was evaluating they never offered me the possibility of giving it without the OS preinstalled (guess which OS). I think the refund issue is OK, but manufactures should ne obliged to offer they hardware also without any software in it, or otherwise they are guilty of building up the crazy Microsoft monopoly.

Good luck !


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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
It shouldn't be legal for a company to create contracts that require a vendor to pay for a product whether or not the product is being supplied to a customer (like MS's per-seat licensing of Windows), or that require a vendor to always include a product with every sale whether or not the customer requests the product. Nor should it be legal for a company to create contracts that prevent a vendor from supplying other products to a customer. Contracts of this sort harm the consumers by unreasonably limiting their choices, and by stifling the open competition that drives quality up and prices down.

Which is a greater priority, the needs of the companies (a relatively small number of financial entities), or the needs of the consumers (the great

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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
compaq did the same to me.

The only way to get back at these people is to avoid buying from them- dell, hp, ibm, toshiba, sony etal and buy PCs from walmart, microtel etc. When linux becomes big and they start selling linux preloaded, AVOID them still and encourage the newcomers to the market.


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Some Ideas (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
I am not a lawyer, but I have discussed EULAs and copyrights with several of them. The MS EULA is a sham, a fraud, and a joke. It is time that it is torn down. These comanies hide behind their EULA when it suits them, but run away from it when it is inconvenient.

I believe you should look for an attourney to file suit in Federal Court against both Toshiba and Microsoft. Consider making the following claims:

1) Misusue of Copyright - ask for a declaritory judgement that MS and Toshiba are jointly committing "misuse of copyright" and that the copyright on Windows should be unenforcable *for all Toshiba customers* until the misuse is fixed.

2) Class action breach of contract - ask the court to find that Toshiba and

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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
You people have to understand this:
Toshiba (or any ohter) have not realy a choise of choosing the OS of your pc.
Imaging a company begining a war with M$ over the OS for a market less then 10%. Not too logical for any company.
The only good thing with toshiba is that they care to help you (of the record ) on pages like this:

http://newsletter.toshiba-tro.de/main/

they are begining to use linux (see the magnia SG20 server)
and they are thinking about using linux in the future
see
http://www.toshiba-tro.de/
(so go vote)

We can not change the world in one night, but if we are asking for it sometime in the future toshiba (and other companies) will use linux on theyre

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Simple ! Boycott Toshiba ! (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
Simple ! Boycott Toshiba and buy a notebook from the chinese ECS. I have a desktote (www.desknote.biz) that comes with no operating system installed and with a CD of ThizLinux distribuition :-)

Chinese are more smarter than japaneses :-))


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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
Hello,

I am impressed with the suport for Adam from the community. I too am tired of seeing large or even small companies pushing the consumer. I suport your interest in this matter and I very interested to see what would be the out come. It is good to know when there is a good cause that the comunity can and would stick together to fight for the common good. I hope you find what you are looking for. I like both the argument of getting your refund and the notion of reaching into their pocket books for future, not wanted purchases. As an individual consumer, I have not been able to change things but I hope as a comunity at large will. I belive in when there are number of people banning together, there is power. I am a person of principl

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Please send me your contact information if you want to support this effort. (Score: 1)
by akosmin (akosminATnyp.org) on Saturday, September 14, 2002
(User Info | Send a Message) http://
I am working to create a central location for us to keep up to date with this information. In the mean time, it's imortant to realize that this story's headline will continue to drop lower and lower on the Journal's front page and eventually lose the ability to generate attention. If you support this issue, I would really appreciate it if you send me your contact information so I can follow up with you when the new site is ready. This message is especially being directed to those of you that feel you are entitled to a refund for your unused copy of a Microsoft operating system. Please send your info to me at akosminATnyp.org

All the best,
Adam Kosmin


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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
I would do either:
a. file a case with the small claims court.
b. return the laptop for a full refund and buy one from a reputable company.

Taking the Toshiba cocksuckers to the claims court would give a greater amount of satisfaction but considerably more effort than the latter option.


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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Saturday, September 14, 2002
Although I lament Toshiba's stated position, I can't really find legal fault. They have offered a full refund, but not for the software alone. They say that they are selling a product comprised of both hardware and software, and that they can't (or won't) sell their product in separate parts. That's surely their right.

I suppose you could liken it to saying that you want to buy the product sans keyboard, and in which case probably they would sell you, not a single product (laptop without keyboard), but a bunch of spare parts: battery, case, power supply, screen, and so on. That may well be the crunch: You certainly can buy spare parts sufficient to assemle a Toshiba laptop without Windows, but I bet it would cost a signifcant amount more t

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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Sunday, September 15, 2002
Dear Daimler-Chrysler:

I wanted to purchase your Chrysler model XYZ, but I didn't want the bundled Mitsubishi engine. Your sales people told me I could NOT by the XYZ without the Mitsubishi engine. I bought it anyway, loaded it on a truck and brought it home (without starting the Mitsubishi engine). I've removed the engine and replaced it and would like you to take the enginge back and refund me the full retail value of the Mitsubishi engine.

--------

I added the "full retail" at the end. I don't know how much refund you expected, probably $300 or so, even though an OEM copy is much, much less.

Anyway, my point is: This is stupid. I don't know why you want to be so hard-headed about it. Just

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Re: Name both Toshiba & Microsoft as co-accused (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Sunday, September 15, 2002
You should charge both Toshiba & Microsoft. If Microsoft say Toshiba must provide a refund, then Toshiba are screwed. If Toshiba say they do not accept the return of bundled software, then the EULA is screwed. Either way you win.

Archerfish.


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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Sunday, September 15, 2002
Hey Adam,

You admit that before you made the purchase that you talked to them and "Eventually, I was told that I could not purchase the hardware without a copy of Microsoft's OS pre-installed and this stipulation was not open to negotiation."

Then you made the mistake of reading the EULA from an unrelated (to this transaction) MS software product, and then assumed you could return the software product from this transaction under the terms of that unrelated one.

When they sent you the item THAT YOU ORDERED, before you opened the package (not the MS package, the shrink wrapped notebook itself) they gave you another oportunity to understand: "TAIS does not accept the return of component parts, or bundled software, wh

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Re: The Toshiba Standoff (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Sunday, September 15, 2002

You made 2 mistakes here:

1) You bought the laptop knowing full well Windows was installed on it.

2) You broke the seal which said if you break it you agree to all, including software licenses.

They win, you lose. Simple. If you get your money back I'll be really,really suprised. People can be so stupid sometimes....


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Another angle for Adam: (Score: 0)
by Anonymous on Monday, September 16, 2002
Hi Adam,

Anonymous 13 yr old posters don't understand 'freedom' except in the sense that THEY don't pay for electricity. ;-) now calm down trolls:

Contracts exist to protect the rights of both parties, and are usually derived through negotiation. Would you buy $10,000 software that came with a five page license that said "we don't promise that the software is suitable for any task"?
This is one reason why shrink-wrapped EULAs haven't yet been upheld in court. AFAIK you can't give someone an envelope that says "by opening this opaque box, you agree to all terms and conditions that we put inside, even though you can't review them first."

The Daimer-Chrysler analogy fails since cars

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