GrammarTalk 17 - 21 May 2008 - Main.EbenMoglen
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Eben made many corrections on students' papers involving number-agreement. For example, "Why does everyone ignore their passions?," as opposed to, say, "Why does everyone ignore (his) / (her) / (his or her) passions?" | | (I will admit that I myself find the Austen sentence awkward, but not the Shaw sentence.) (I also am fully aware that dialogue in novels is not a good guide to how to write correctly, as its goal is to capture how people speak, not reflect how people write.) | |
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- This example is worse than the other, because we are not likely to model our writing on the diction of the early 19th century. Miss Crawford is also the speaker who says, a moment earlier, "If your Miss Bertrams do not like to have their hearts broke, let them avoid Henry," which is wrong as to modern sequence of tenses (we use the past perfect "broken" in that place), and stilted. I want to emphasize again that the issue is what your writing should be like, not what examples can be found in the OED. You should know the difference between "shall" and "will," regardless of the absence of a remaining understanding on that point among the bulk of even literate American English speakers, and you should be aware that conditions contrary to fact in English require the subjunctive not matter what you may hear from the floor of the United States Senate.
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- This example is worse than the other, because we are not likely to model our writing on the diction of the early 19th century. Miss Crawford is also the speaker who says, a moment earlier, "If your Miss Bertrams do not like to have their hearts broke, let them avoid Henry," which is wrong as to modern sequence of tenses (we use the past perfect "broken" in that place), and stilted. I want to emphasize again that the issue is what your writing should be like, not what examples can be found in the OED. You should know the difference between "shall" and "will," regardless of the absence of a remaining understanding on that point among the bulk of even literate American English speakers, and you should be aware that conditions contrary to fact in English require the subjunctive no matter what you may hear from the floor of the United States Senate.
| | 2) Some prescriptive grammatical authorities find the usage acceptable, but most don't. For example, 82% of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language usage panel rejected the usage (though that means 18% did not). |
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GrammarTalk 16 - 21 May 2008 - Main.AndrewGradman
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Eben made many corrections on students' papers involving number-agreement. For example, "Why does everyone ignore their passions?," as opposed to, say, "Why does everyone ignore (his) / (her) / (his or her) passions?" | | -- AndrewWolstan - 20 May 2008 | |
< < | Michael:
| | A father and his daughter get into a terrible car accident. They are taken to separate rooms of the hospital. The doctor in charge of the girl looks at her and says, "I can't operate. She's my daughter." Still surprised? | |
< < | If the gender of the pronoun "my" followed the gender of the words "she-daughter"/"he-son" surrounding it, then this example cannot help us know whether people assume a default male gender in general. That means that if we experiment with the terms of this story -- sometimes substituting "daughter" for "son", and at other times replacing "physician" with "secretary," "ballet dancer," "teacher," or "nurse" -- the "daughter" substitution should be more predictive of reader confusion about the ambiguously gendered character's gendered. In which case, the outrage feminists feel when readers "default" the physician to male is really just an artifact of the author's choice to make the ambiguously-gendered "my" refer unambiguously to a physician. | > > | Michael:
If the gender of the pronoun "my" followed the gender of the words "she-daughter"/"he-son" surrounding it, then your example cannot help us know whether people assume a default male gender in general. That means that if we experiment with the terms of your story -- sometimes substituting "daughter" for "son", and at other times replacing "physician" with "secretary," "ballet dancer," "teacher," or "nurse" -- the "daughter" substitution should best alleviate reader confusion about the ambiguously gendered character's gender. In which case, the outrage feminists feel when readers "default" the physician to male is really just an artifact of the author's choice to make the ambiguously-gendered, but male-associated, "my" refer unambiguously to a physician. | | -- AndrewGradman - 20 May 2008 |
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GrammarTalk 15 - 21 May 2008 - Main.EbenMoglen
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Eben made many corrections on students' papers involving number-agreement. For example, "Why does everyone ignore their passions?," as opposed to, say, "Why does everyone ignore (his) / (her) / (his or her) passions?" | | Caesar: "No, Cleopatra. No man goes to battle to be killed." / Cleopatra: "But they do get killed". —
Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra (1901) | |
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- Not a good example. Caesar makes a statement: no particular indefinite soldier ever goes into battle intending to be killed. Cleopatra points out that notwithstanding this fact, soldiers die in great numbers. The shift from singular to plural is intentional, grammatical, and effective.
| | I would have everybody marry if they can do it properly. — Austen, Mansfield Park (1814)
(I will admit that I myself find the Austen sentence awkward, but not the Shaw sentence.) (I also am fully aware that dialogue in novels is not a good guide to how to write correctly, as its goal is to capture how people speak, not reflect how people write.) | |
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- This example is worse than the other, because we are not likely to model our writing on the diction of the early 19th century. Miss Crawford is also the speaker who says, a moment earlier, "If your Miss Bertrams do not like to have their hearts broke, let them avoid Henry," which is wrong as to modern sequence of tenses (we use the past perfect "broken" in that place), and stilted. I want to emphasize again that the issue is what your writing should be like, not what examples can be found in the OED. You should know the difference between "shall" and "will," regardless of the absence of a remaining understanding on that point among the bulk of even literate American English speakers, and you should be aware that conditions contrary to fact in English require the subjunctive not matter what you may hear from the floor of the United States Senate.
| | 2) Some prescriptive grammatical authorities find the usage acceptable, but most don't. For example, 82% of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language usage panel rejected the usage (though that means 18% did not).
3) Wonder of wonders, there has been a study very much on point. I very much encourage anyone interested to read it. But I've summarized some of the key findings (hopefully accurately) below. |
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GrammarTalk 14 - 21 May 2008 - Main.MichaelBerkovits
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Eben made many corrections on students' papers involving number-agreement. For example, "Why does everyone ignore their passions?," as opposed to, say, "Why does everyone ignore (his) / (her) / (his or her) passions?" | | ralph wiggum said it best --> me fail english? thats unpossible.
-- AdamGold? - 21 May 2008 | |
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I'm happy to report having just discovered that Wikipedia has a lengthy discourse on this very subject: Wikipedia on "Singular they"
The most interesting things I learned:
1) "Singular they" has a long history in the English language, e.g.,
Caesar: "No, Cleopatra. No man goes to battle to be killed." / Cleopatra: "But they do get killed". —
Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra (1901)
I would have everybody marry if they can do it properly. — Austen, Mansfield Park (1814)
(I will admit that I myself find the Austen sentence awkward, but not the Shaw sentence.) (I also am fully aware that dialogue in novels is not a good guide to how to write correctly, as its goal is to capture how people speak, not reflect how people write.)
2) Some prescriptive grammatical authorities find the usage acceptable, but most don't. For example, 82% of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language usage panel rejected the usage (though that means 18% did not).
3) Wonder of wonders, there has been a study very much on point. I very much encourage anyone interested to read it. But I've summarized some of the key findings (hopefully accurately) below.
a) Sentences involving use of "singular they" are processed as efficiently as uses of, say, singular "he" when the antecedent is stereotypically male (e.g., truck drivers). "Singular they" is processed more quickly than is a singular pronoun which does not match the antecedent (e.g., using "she" when referring to a generic truck driver). This matches Andrew's intuitions.
b) When the antecedent is specific, as opposed to generic (e.g., a sentence about "that truck driver" as opposed to truck drivers in general), uses of singular they are processed less efficiently than use of the gendered pronoun that matches the stereotype (e.g., "he" for "that truck driver," and "her" for "that nurse").
Of course, this study should be taken with a grain of salt. First of all, as many people pointed out, we are lawyers-to-be, not ordinary people. Just because the average American is not impeded in her reading of a sentence where singular they is used, does not mean that people in our future audience (professors, judges, colleagues) are not - the average American will read a sentence containing singular they just as efficiently as one containing "he" or "she," but Eben and many of us will not, because of our special attention to precise writing. The study would no doubt have come up with different results if, say, the members of the American Heritage usage panel were the test subjects.
However, if the goal is writing that is not distracting, alternating "he" and "she" can cause trouble anytime the referent is stereotypically male or female, and the pronoun does not match.
The study did yield a finding that was opposite to my prediction: "neutral" antecedents (like, "The runner") take "he" or "she" equally well. I'm not sure if follow-up studies have been done, but it would seem that this experimental methodology could ferret out which nouns are stereotypically gendered and which are truly neutral. Are there nouns that are not quite as gender-stereotyped as "truck driver," but not quite as neutral as "runner?" What about "doctor," "lawyer," "artist," "hair stylist?"
The study also found that in sentences like "Anybody who litters should be fined $50, even if he/she/they cannot see a trashcan nearby..." the singular they is actually the pronoun that leads to fastest reading times. Again, I would imagine that the same result would not hold for people very attuned to prescriptive grammar; but it is worth noting that the test subjects here were university students, not street rabble.
-- MichaelBerkovits - 21 May 2008 | |
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GrammarTalk 13 - 21 May 2008 - Main.AdamGold
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Eben made many corrections on students' papers involving number-agreement. For example, "Why does everyone ignore their passions?," as opposed to, say, "Why does everyone ignore (his) / (her) / (his or her) passions?" | | Andrew, I'm not sure I understand the takeaway, but I do appreciate the point about various occupations and characteristics being gendered one way or the other, not all of them male. But I submit that many occupations which are currently split 50-50 by gender in real life (college students, for example, where females make up slightly more than 50% of the pool) retain a default male connotation. So, the sentence "The college student did his taxes on time" is easier to process than "The college student did her taxes on time." Now, of course, this is nothing more than my intuition. However, it could be tested experimentally, and I suspect that one would be able to show that cognitive processing of the first version is easier than the second. If true, this would be an interesting result, given that America today is roughly equally split between male and female college students.
-- MichaelBerkovits - 20 May 2008 | |
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I am with Eben et al on this one as well. I do not think that we can make any generalizations about what is or is not incorporated into vernacular, especially given the inherent regional nature of "vernacular."
More importantly, our profession is one of precision and, especially after learning the estates and future interests unit in property, it is delightful (for grammar nerds like me) to see how much comma placement is the name of the game.
ralph wiggum said it best --> me fail english? thats unpossible.
-- AdamGold? - 21 May 2008 | | |
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