Law in Contemporary Society

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FearAndAnxiety 11 - 04 Feb 2010 - Main.MarenHulden
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 When Eben talks about the fear and anxiety created by law school, grades, and dwindling firm jobs, does this resonate with you? How about fear that you won't find something that you are passionate about, that fulfills you, and that allows you to support yourself and your family?

I wished that Eben had spoken more to that fear and anxiety today in class, and more specifically, what to do about it.

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 -- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010
 
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I also wonder whether the fear and anxiety for some people is related to stepping beyond the standard amount of schooling into territory where you no longer can do what everyone else does, or what you're supposed to do. I remember (and I've seen this in many of my friends in their first one-two years out of college) feeling lots of anxiety the first 12 months out of college ... what am I going to do with my life? how do I do that? how can I find something to do that both helps others and meets my interests? Fretting over those questions for about six months (and I was fortunate enough to spend those six months in a remote mountain village without modern communication or pressures, but with beautiful wilderness scenery) helped me get used to wondering about those questions. Now, even though I wonder about those things a lot, the wondering causes me little anxiety. (note: this first 12-months out anxiety was quite noticeable in Teach For America too--people straight from college often had more difficulty adjusting to new sets of values in their schools/communities--but it's not nearly as poignant as in law school, probably because in TFA you know EXACTLY what you want in your work, and at least have a good idea of how to get it)

I suppose coupling the post-college anxiety with the high stakes of law school makes for a particularly anxiety-ridden experience.

But I do think time working before law school lessens the anxiety, or it certainly has for me. (I did TFA, teaching in a middle school in Starr County, Texas on the border before this). The first reasons that come to mind ...

**Responsibility shift--here I'm responsible only for myself and my future. At work, I was responsible for the safety and education of hundreds of kids each day

**Real-life consequences--if I don't get my work done here, little happens and I can make it up later. If I didn't get my work done as a teacher, I could mismanage a class and allow a child to make a mistake that would send them to the alternative center, or waste precious class time that my kids (3-4 years below grade level) needed.

**I feel so lucky to be here--for many reasons: I get to spend my day reading/thinking about interesting ideas and questions, I don't have to wake up early every day and spend the first hour wishing I were back in bed, I don't have to work 18 hours a day, and I have access to incredible minds, fantastic career opportunities (with promise of a life of reasonable comfort) and an amazing city that my students in Rio Grande City couldn't have dreamed of.

I'm not sure where this leaves us ... none of this probably lessens anyone else here's anxiety smile


FearAndAnxiety 10 - 03 Feb 2010 - Main.DavidGarfinkel
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 When Eben talks about the fear and anxiety created by law school, grades, and dwindling firm jobs, does this resonate with you? How about fear that you won't find something that you are passionate about, that fulfills you, and that allows you to support yourself and your family?

I wished that Eben had spoken more to that fear and anxiety today in class, and more specifically, what to do about it.

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-- CeciliaWang - 03 Feb 2010

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It would be an interesting question to survey Northwestern students, the majority of which (think was 90% or so) have at least one, most at least 2 years, of work experience. However, I do not think the answers do not differ till you are asking people who actually had a career. This may explain some of the different attitudes you see among members of the Older and Wiser Law Students (OWLS) than among the younger set. Part of this probably stems from the fact that those who took time off don't really have significant real world experience since such work is colored by the expectation that we will be going into graduate school shortly. I think a lot of the fear is not getting a job, but not getting the "right" job, which we are frankly not sure what the right answer is. What doubles the fear is the feeling that our whole future depends on one year of work, half of which is based on the very beginnings of law school when we haven't had time to learn the language.

-- DavidGarfinkel - 03 Feb 2010

 
 
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FearAndAnxiety 9 - 03 Feb 2010 - Main.CeciliaWang
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 When Eben talks about the fear and anxiety created by law school, grades, and dwindling firm jobs, does this resonate with you? How about fear that you won't find something that you are passionate about, that fulfills you, and that allows you to support yourself and your family?

I wished that Eben had spoken more to that fear and anxiety today in class, and more specifically, what to do about it.

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 I think that the strict curve adds to the stress too, at least in part because it provides an alienation from the resulting mark. It would be one thing if my grade was the direct result of the work that I put in to learning the concepts that I'm tested on. It's quite another if it's a product of the work I did as measured against the work that other people did all filtered through an inherently (and necessarily) subjective grading process. Alienation effects aside I think that this method of ranking students fosters a highly competitive environment, and I don't think that's a necessary prerequisite of a highly intellectually stimulating experience. I can challenge my mind well enough without a Thunderdome-style law school throwdown.

-- AndrewCascini - 03 Feb 2010

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In response to Caroline's first question: sometimes I wonder if I'm deeply in denial when I can't make myself afraid. As a first year I know that's not good - the lack of fear first semester probably caused me to learn the law not as well as a lot of my classmates who did realize that law school regarding a whole different level of learning and commitment compared to uncurved undergraduate classes. I also miss being an English Lit. major and taking seminars on Imaginative Literature and 19th century novels (Austen, Dickens, Brontes) that encouraged us to write papers on whatever we wanted to write about.

I believe everything will turn out fine, and I (we) will find a job(s)/career(s) both meaningful and interesting. Well, there is fear - fear of not knowing what I would find wonderful and interesting and meaningful in the long run, but mitigated by the fact that really any subject or practice of law can interesting. At least that's what the career counselor said back in November, telling a story about her securities or tax attorney friend and I liked to believe that. Please understand that I only graduated from college in May 2009; I've only taken internships that interested me and never suffered unemployment, financial distress, or the boredom and anxiety associated in popular media (such as Office Space or The Office) with full-time work. This is probably a symptom of the entitlement attitude Mohit brought up in class: belief in our intelligence, in our potential, in the impossibility of us being unhappy (in the long term) and failing (as in, not being able to feed myself after graduation). I don't know what to do about that. Perhaps law school should require of all applicants a year of real work experience.

Like Erica, I am also frustrated that universities private and public can raise tuitions so much because the demand is so high. Like a hypothetical person in one of those economic problems, I did not want to be that person who chose to find a lesser-ranked law school to attend for free when so most people were choosing the best school that accepted them. If the United State government funded all the top universities (converting private to public and maintaining the top public ones) such that all admitted students could attend for free, and thus due to limited funding had to eliminate half the universities the government does fully-fund, we would benefit, but not the students testing below the 80th percentile. The more options available provide more opportunities for social mobility right?

Some homeowners have been walking away from their mortgages. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/business/03walk.html?hp One homeowner's question: “I took a loan on an asset that I didn’t see was overvalued,” he said. “As much as I would like my bank to pay for that mistake, why should it?” When I saw the headline I had the thought, “Good for them!” but not after reading the article. I know Eben spent an entire class explaining 1) banks are not being unduly punished when homeowners walk away and 2) if even they are paying for the mistakes of the assetless, they should. I am disappointed that the 80% of hopelessly in debt homeowners who persist in paying their mortgages are likely the ones who honestly thought they could pay for their homes.

-- CeciliaWang - 03 Feb 2010

 
 
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FearAndAnxiety 8 - 03 Feb 2010 - Main.AndrewCascini
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 When Eben talks about the fear and anxiety created by law school, grades, and dwindling firm jobs, does this resonate with you? How about fear that you won't find something that you are passionate about, that fulfills you, and that allows you to support yourself and your family?

I wished that Eben had spoken more to that fear and anxiety today in class, and more specifically, what to do about it.

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I think that the strict curve adds to the stress too, at least in part because it provides an alienation from the resulting mark. It would be one thing if my grade was the direct result of the work that I put in to learning the concepts that I'm tested on. It's quite another if it's a product of the work I did as measured against the work that other people did all filtered through an inherently (and necessarily) subjective grading process. Alienation effects aside I think that this method of ranking students fosters a highly competitive environment, and I don't think that's a necessary prerequisite of a highly intellectually stimulating experience. I can challenge my mind well enough without a Thunderdome-style law school throwdown.

-- AndrewCascini - 03 Feb 2010

 
 
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FearAndAnxiety 7 - 03 Feb 2010 - Main.CarolineFerrisWhite
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 When Eben talks about the fear and anxiety created by law school, grades, and dwindling firm jobs, does this resonate with you? How about fear that you won't find something that you are passionate about, that fulfills you, and that allows you to support yourself and your family?

I wished that Eben had spoken more to that fear and anxiety today in class, and more specifically, what to do about it.

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  Above all, what I find have found most interesting about law school is the close connection it has with the real world. Every case we read is a story about something that actually happened, and actually affected peoples' lives, which is so different from what I experienced in college. Perhaps the cases we read now aren't as interesting as some of the literature we read in college, but the thought that what we are learning may actually allow us to do something powerful is inspiring in its own right.
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Part 3: In some ways, I actually don't mind the grades too much because I find them to be a good source of motivation. I know that the motivation should come from wanting to master the concepts so we can apply them when we graduate, but that extra little push is helpful sometimes. I know a 1L at Yale right now, and she barely studied at all for her finals. Obviously everyone here is very motivated, but can we honestly say that we would all work as hard all the time if we weren't graded? At the same time, I am really unhappy about the harmful effects of grades. The goal of this law school should be for all of its graduates to have the greatest chance possible of success when they leave, and I really don't think that objective is furthered by grading us - especially in our first semester. - NathanStopper?
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Part 3: In some ways, I actually don't mind the grades too much because I find them to be a good source of motivation. I know that the motivation should come from wanting to master the concepts so we can apply them when we graduate, but that extra little push is helpful sometimes. I know a 1L at Yale right now, and she barely studied at all for her finals. Obviously everyone here is very motivated, but can we honestly say that we would all work as hard all the time if we weren't graded? At the same time, I am really unhappy about the harmful effects of grades. The goal of this law school should be for all of its graduates to have the greatest chance possible of success when they leave, and I really don't think that objective is furthered by grading us - especially in our first semester.
 
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-- NathanStopper
 
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 I do feel that the fear regarding grades and job placements might not be such a terrible thing. Fear, as long as it's not overwhelming, may compel us to question, work harder, seek more meaningful relationships, and generally take full advantage of the privileges we've been offered. Kierkegaard said: "Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom." I view angst as being somewhat tied up in the current human condition, not just a 1L phenomenon. wink

@Nathan I completely agree with you on how exciting it has been to be studying legal concepts that have such relevant and immediate application in the real world.

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 -- EricaSelig - 03 Feb 2010
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-- RonMazor 03 Feb 2010
 
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 I actually found the atmosphere here to be what I'd expected, just by envisioning what a class of 300+ hypercompetitive, highly intelligent people would act like when placed together. Unfortunately, I do not think switching to a High Pass/Pass/Low Pass/Fail system would ameliorate the anxiety. As long as you are ranking people, and their rank in the system depends on the outcome of one four hour exam, there will be high levels of stress. Even though the school has tried to soften the blow somewhat (by not publishing class rank or GPA values) people still obsessively check grades or figure out ways to calculate their rank relative to the class. I think eliminating the 1L grading system entirely is the only way to measurably reduce anxiety, and it's my hope this wiki can help us figure out a way to do that while still promoting the skills we as first year law students need to learn.
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 -- JonathanWaisnor - 03 Feb 2010
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Revision 11r11 - 04 Feb 2010 - 00:28:13 - MarenHulden
Revision 10r10 - 03 Feb 2010 - 20:38:24 - DavidGarfinkel
Revision 9r9 - 03 Feb 2010 - 19:28:19 - CeciliaWang
Revision 8r8 - 03 Feb 2010 - 19:21:27 - AndrewCascini
Revision 7r7 - 03 Feb 2010 - 18:21:41 - CarolineFerrisWhite
Revision 6r6 - 03 Feb 2010 - 08:25:41 - JonathanWaisnor
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