From: <jy2050@columbia.edu>
  To  : <cpc@emoglen.law.columbia.edu>
  Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:14:30 -0500

Re: private versus government data collection

Sze,

While I do agree with you that Singapore is a country where people
give absolute faith in the government and therefore they let the
government get away with imposing all sorts of restrictions, I
don't see how the US is in any less danger, especially in terms of
public data mining.

To be fair, at least in Singapore, the government has so much
confidence in its regime, that it is very open in implementing new
policies. In terms of transparency, the people are in a far better
position to see what policy changes are being implemented.

Awareness level is high because the people know that each policy
that the government implement will affect the whole community. Do
you really believe that the people in the US have the same level of
awareness? It is my opinion that the majority of the population
believe that the patriot act is a regulation that only affect
terrorists. That it involves screening of Muslims and that it will
not affect their lives, maybe only in airports.

So I cannot say which is more dangerous, a government that openly
regulates a city country where the citizen give outright faith but
are usually aware of the changes or a country that can do so with
the backing of the majority who are usually ignorant of the policy
changes that are being carried out.

In smaller countries, public outcry has a powerful effect on the
government. In Korea, internet blogs and netizens can bring the
government to its knees whenever it gains public support. In
Korea,a march in Seoul is taken seriously by the regime. When the
Chinese tried to implement stricter governance in HK, a public
march forced the Chinese government to withdraw its new policing
policies.

I don't see that happening in the United States. Too many people,
too diverse and too blissful of the plight of others. NIMBY carries
the day and the government doesn't have to be a NANNY state in order
to be autocratic.

- Jang Yeo

Quoting Sze Tan <st2206@columbia.edu>:

>
> Camden,
>
> >From your point of view, the problems associated with private
> data
> collection are more "tractable" because the voting public, via
> governmental
> machinery, can vote to snuff out abuses. There is a slight
> contradiction in
> your perspective, however, as it presupposes the inherent
> reliability of the
> government - something which you go on to doubt, at least in the
> context of
> public collection of data.
>
> I do appreciate your point about the over-extension of the
> legitimacy in
> public data mining, however. Fortunately, this is the United
> States, and not
> some paternalistic country like Singapore, where people simply
> believe (and
> obey) what their government tells them hook, line and sinker.
> There's a long
> way to go yet before the US turns into a nanny state - but that
> means the
> earlier we start taking precautions, the better.
>
> Sze
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Camden Hutchison" <crh2014@columbia.edu>
> To: <cpc@emoglen.law.columbia.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: private versus government data collection
>
>
> >
> > Points taken, but the problems with private data collection
> still
> > seem a little more... I don't know... tractable, maybe, than
> the
> > issue of increasing government surveillance of society.  For
> > instance, I have a feeling that the worst abuses in private
> data
> > collection (like sloppy control of data) can actually be solved
> > legally once the voting public becomes upset enough about them.
> >
> > Data mining by the government is more worrisome to me because I
> fear
> > that it is less likely to raise the public ire.  I am worried
> that
> > September 11 may have really caused the sort of cultural shift
> > whereby ordinary people are willing to accept government
> monitoring
> > because they are afraid.  By the time that the threat of
> terrorism
> > fades from salience, the security apparatus will still be there
> and
> > Americans will have become accustomed to it.  The potential for
> this
> > type of change -- a paradigm shift in the conception and
> reality of
> > civil liberties -- is what concerns me most.
> >
> > -Camden
> >
> >> I would say this an oversimplification of things, and more
> >> importantly the
> >> issue is not only the use that the government can make of the
> all
> >> of this
> >> information but also the misuse and defective protection of
> the
> >> private
> >> data by private individuals. added to that is the use that
> others
> >> can make
> >> of the data that readily available for stealing and for which
> >> there is not
> >> penalty under American privacy laws, which only bind the
> >> government
> >> -excerpt maybe for the fair credit reporting act.
> >>
> >> So its not really either or, and its not what is worse, its
> the
> >> combined
> >> effect of it all.
> >>
> >> Alex
> >>
> >> --On Sunday, February 20, 2005 9:15 AM -0500 Camden Hutchison
> >> <crh2014@columbia.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > The impression I am getting from reading Robert O'Harrow,
> Jr.'s
> >> book
> >> > is that new data collection technologies raise two distinct
> >> social
> >> > issues.  One is that private businesses now have easy access
> to
> >> > detailed personal information about us.  The other is that
> the
> >> > federal government increasingly also has access to detailed
> >> > personal information about us.
> >> >
> >> > I am curious as to which of these two issues other students
> >> feel is
> >> > the core problem we should be addressing in the class.  My
> own
> >> > feeling is that government use of our personal information
> (at
> >> > least when it is being used for national security purposes)
> is
> >> far
> >> > more worrisome than private use of that information.  Like
> Eben
> >> > said in class, the worst that marketers can do is try to
> >> convince
> >> > us to go to Disneyworld.  The government can send men with
> guns
> >> to
> >> > our homes.
> >> >
> >> > -Camden
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
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