From: Jeremy Robinson <jpr2108@columbia.edu>
  To  : <cpc@emoglen.law.columbia.edu>
  Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:41:32 -0500

Re: private versus government data collection

I didn't see it as a contradictory perspective.

I may have misunderstood, but I saw the concern that was expressed to 
relate to the government's legal ability to engage in widespread and 
virtually unrestrained data mining, which can be remedied by legislation 
(for example, the repeal or amendment of the Patriot Act).  It wasn't about 
the trustworthiness of the government in faithfully administering the law.

In other words, the point concerned the government's actual ability rather 
than its reliability.

This is not to say that the latter is not a legitimate concern, but it is a 
different one.

Nonetheless, I agree that worries about privacy and unrestrained data 
collection cannot be resolved by focusing on government to the exclusion of 
business.

Jeremy


--On February 21, 2005 5:26 PM -0500 Sze Tan <st2206@columbia.edu> wrote:

>
> Camden,
>
>> From your point of view, the problems associated with private data
> collection are more "tractable" because the voting public, via
> governmental machinery, can vote to snuff out abuses. There is a slight
> contradiction in your perspective, however, as it presupposes the
> inherent reliability of the government - something which you go on to
> doubt, at least in the context of public collection of data.
>
> I do appreciate your point about the over-extension of the legitimacy in
> public data mining, however. Fortunately, this is the United States, and
> not some paternalistic country like Singapore, where people simply
> believe (and obey) what their government tells them hook, line and
> sinker. There's a long way to go yet before the US turns into a nanny
> state - but that means the earlier we start taking precautions, the
> better.
>
> Sze
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camden Hutchison"
> <crh2014@columbia.edu>
> To: <cpc@emoglen.law.columbia.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: private versus government data collection
>
>
>>
>> Points taken, but the problems with private data collection still
>> seem a little more... I don't know... tractable, maybe, than the
>> issue of increasing government surveillance of society.  For
>> instance, I have a feeling that the worst abuses in private data
>> collection (like sloppy control of data) can actually be solved
>> legally once the voting public becomes upset enough about them.
>>
>> Data mining by the government is more worrisome to me because I fear
>> that it is less likely to raise the public ire.  I am worried that
>> September 11 may have really caused the sort of cultural shift
>> whereby ordinary people are willing to accept government monitoring
>> because they are afraid.  By the time that the threat of terrorism
>> fades from salience, the security apparatus will still be there and
>> Americans will have become accustomed to it.  The potential for this
>> type of change -- a paradigm shift in the conception and reality of
>> civil liberties -- is what concerns me most.
>>
>> -Camden
>>
>>> I would say this an oversimplification of things, and more
>>> importantly the
>>> issue is not only the use that the government can make of the all
>>> of this
>>> information but also the misuse and defective protection of the
>>> private
>>> data by private individuals. added to that is the use that others
>>> can make
>>> of the data that readily available for stealing and for which
>>> there is not
>>> penalty under American privacy laws, which only bind the
>>> government
>>> -excerpt maybe for the fair credit reporting act.
>>>
>>> So its not really either or, and its not what is worse, its the
>>> combined
>>> effect of it all.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> --On Sunday, February 20, 2005 9:15 AM -0500 Camden Hutchison
>>> <crh2014@columbia.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > The impression I am getting from reading Robert O'Harrow, Jr.'s
>>> book
>>> > is that new data collection technologies raise two distinct
>>> social
>>> > issues.  One is that private businesses now have easy access to
>>> > detailed personal information about us.  The other is that the
>>> > federal government increasingly also has access to detailed
>>> > personal information about us.
>>> >
>>> > I am curious as to which of these two issues other students
>>> feel is
>>> > the core problem we should be addressing in the class.  My own
>>> > feeling is that government use of our personal information (at
>>> > least when it is being used for national security purposes) is
>>> far
>>> > more worrisome than private use of that information.  Like Eben
>>> > said in class, the worst that marketers can do is try to
>>> convince
>>> > us to go to Disneyworld.  The government can send men with guns
>>> to
>>> > our homes.
>>> >
>>> > -Camden
>>> >
>>> >
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > Computers, Privacy, and the Constitution mailing list
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Computers, Privacy, and the Constitution mailing list
>>
>>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Computers, Privacy, and the Constitution mailing list





-----------------------------------------------------------------
Computers, Privacy, and the Constitution mailing list