OSDN | Our Network | Newsletters | Advertise | Shop     X 

Click here for Everything!
Welcome to Slashdot Editorial Announcements Graphics The Internet Hardware
 faq
 code
 awards
 journals
 subscribe
 older stuff
 rob's page
 preferences
 submit story
 advertising
 supporters
 past polls
 topics
 about
 bugs
 jobs
 hof

Sections
apache
Jul 19
(1 recent)

apple
Jul 19
(5 recent)

askslashdot
Jul 20
(11 recent)

books
Jul 19
(1 recent)

bsd
Jul 18
(1 recent)

developers
Jul 19
(4 recent)

features
Jul 18
(1 recent)

interviews
Jul 17

radio
Jun 29

science
Jul 19
(6 recent)

yro
Jul 19
(4 recent)

Rasterman Says Desktop Linux is Dead
LinuxPosted by CmdrTaco on Saturday July 20, @10:21AM
from the popular-view-these-days dept.
anguished writes "The future of Linux, its best hopes for blowing past everything else on an x86 machine, once was located in a little Austrailai website, with a window manager called Enlightenment, which we all hoped to be good enough to build and configure. In an interview with Linux and Main, the recently silent Rasterman talks about GNOME, KDE, E, and his view that the future of Linux requires new playing fields."

 

 
Slashdot Login
Nickname:

Password:

[ Create a new account ]

Related Links
· interview
· Linux and Main
· More on Linux
· Also by CmdrTaco

<  Internet Giants Prepare for WorldCom 'Storm' | Hot-Rod Your CD-RW Drive  >
Rasterman Says Desktop Linux is Dead | Log in/Create an Account | Top | 630 comments | Search Discussion
Threshold:
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1) | 2 (Slashdot Overload: CommentLimit 50)
Linux for Grandma and Uncle Jim-Bob (Score:4, Insightful)
by dowobeha (los20@@@cam...ac...uk) on Saturday July 20, @10:26AM (#3922240)
(User #581813 Info)
I posted this in another thread, but it got buried, so here goes...

For you and me, KDE and GNOME, along with any of the good standard distros makes GNU/Linux a great, pretty-easy-to-use choice.

But that's not good enough.

What I'd like to put together is Linux for Technophobes. The machine that Joe Schmoe, who has never used a computer, can walk in to Wal-mart, take home his new box, and be able to use it for email, web browsing, and word processing with zero assistance from anyone else.

He should open the box and find a simple (a la iMac) one-page sheet that shows him how to connect the mouse and keyboard.

A simple wizard sets up the net connection with him.

I'm picturing a very simple interface for the Basic mode. One big button that says Email and has a picture of a mailbox. Another for the web browser. Maybe a couple more apps, but not many.

And, if you click on the Advanced mode button in the corner, you get switched to KDE or GNOME.

Let me know what you think, and maybe we can put something like this together.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Linux is not dead, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
by Drunken_Jackass on Saturday July 20, @10:30AM (#3922253)
(User #325938 Info | http://slashdot.org/)
it's not entirely healthy either.

I must say, though, that my recent installation of SuSE 8.0 professional has renewed my enthusiasm for a first-rate desktop distribution that's also a great server environment.

From the animated startup icons, to the look and feel of the default K desktop, it's really the closest thing to the perfect distro that i've come across.

And the installation is easier and faster (despite the 7 CD's) than Mandrake's!

I think a lot of other distro's can take a lot of lessons from such a clean, smooth, stable distribution as SuSE has pumped out.

I can't wait for more!
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Fact it (Score:1)
by jsse on Saturday July 20, @10:33AM (#3922263)
(User #254124 Info | http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Saturday July 13, @09:42AM)
Windows has won. Face it.

Another cheerleader down. I'm not sure if other cheerleaders would declare their failure in the future, but I'm sure they'd add some more comments:

Linus: Windows has won. But I don't care.

RMS: Windows has won. But it still sucks, and we still 133t. Beside, I've a date.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:Fact it by iguana (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @10:43AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Fact it by Gnulix (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @11:57AM
  • Re:no 3d?!?! by mughi (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @12:34PM
    • Re:no 3d?!?! by mughi (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @03:40PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Fact it by Sj0 (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @03:49PM
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Linux is dead... (Score:5, Insightful)
by Xpilot (elecbyte@yahoo.com) on Saturday July 20, @10:35AM (#3922274)
(User #117961 Info | http://slashdot.org/)
What, again?

How many times has Linux died this year? I've lost count :)

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
    Apple is way deader! (Score:5, Funny)
    by feldsteins (scottfeldstein@[ ].com ['mac' in gap]) on Saturday July 20, @10:59AM (#3922377)
    (User #313201 Info | http://home.wi.rr.com/sfeldstein/scott)
    Apple has you beat by a mile. It's been dying twice a year since the mid-80's.
    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
    Linux is alive (Score:4, Insightful)
    by Subcarrier on Saturday July 20, @11:06AM (#3922417)
    (User #262294 Info)
    What, again?

    Exactly what I thought. People are so busy planning grand futures for Linux, and so disappointed when the software evolution fails to take us there, that they forget to enjoy the present.

    Linux will have a future. Just take my word for it. The journey, however, is more important than the destination.
    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
      absolutely it is alive and well (Score:5, Interesting)
      by Lewis Mettler, Esq. (lmettler@lGINSBERGamlaw.com minus poet) on Saturday July 20, @11:58AM (#3922648)
      (User #553022 Info | http://www.lamlaw.com/)
      Linux is doing fine thank you.

      Oh sure, it is a bit slow selling on desktops but that will change as more and more consumers find out that Microsoft can more than double the cost of every PC you need.

      The Microsoft office suite is $400 or so a seat. And, they are getting nasty about blocking the install on home, laptop and second or third systems by the same person. For $76, StarOffice suggests 5 personal installs. And, if $76 is too stiff, use OpenOffice.

      Once the white box boys figure out that they can deliver all PCs with a free copy of OpenOffice and simply charge $15 or so to have it preinstalled, the casual market for the Microsoft Suite could dry up completely. And, the same may be true with large organizations such as corporations, governments, etc. Why spend $300-600 more per PC when you can go with linux, OpenOffice or StarOffice and double the number of new machines you buy?

      Money is money.

      And, right now money favors linux hands down.

      Plus, that does not take into account the progress that Xandros, Lindows and others are making to expand the number of viable desktop systems under the linux banner.

      The absence of QuickBooks, TurboTax and a few other key applications is a problem right now. GNUCash is fine. And, other software does substitute for much of what people think they need Microsoft for. But, it takes time for that information to filter out. But, it will filter out. Those who sell PCs (not the big OEMs) will be taking the lead packaging complete systems including software for a whole lot less than the Microsoft burden. Then customers can decide if the extra money is really worth it. It is not if you can make the choice.

      And, if you write custom applications anyway, Java or Delphi/Kylix is right there to give you the same powerful GUI based RAD development systems you expect on Microsoft stuff.

      The more machines you need the bigger the price benefit helps linux.

      And, if you think that consumer PC buyers really want to pay twice the price for a system just because it has some Microsoft software on it that they rarely use, you are crasy. The typical consumer simply is unaware of what they can buy and use. That will change.

      [ Reply to This | Parent ]
    • Re:Linux is alive by Amiasian (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @06:27PM
  • Re:Linux is dead... by ahfoo (Score:3) Saturday July 20, @11:10AM
  • Apparently... by Dissonant (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @11:19AM
  • Re:Linux is dead... by dsb (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @01:43PM
  • DESKTOP linux is dead!!! by SensitiveMale (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @02:06PM
  • Who, not What by fm6 (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @03:41PM
  • Re:Linux is NOT dead...it's just sleeping by discogravy (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @05:32PM
  • Re:Linux is dead... by archen (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @11:10AM
  • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
Linux isn't about the desktop (Score:1, Interesting)
by PhysicsGenius (`moc.oohay' `ta' `rekees_scisyhp') on Saturday July 20, @10:36AM (#3922278)
(User #565228 Info)
It's all about the servers, baby.

Nobody is using Linux as a desktop system--it just doesn't have the intuitive point-n-click of a Mac or the games offerings of Windows. People are using Linux for the server-side. That's where the real power is. The one who controls the server controls the desktop, Microsoft has been saying that for years.

I've been saying for years that E was eye-candy and that development efforts were better focused on the shortcomings Linux has on high-end server machines such as quality NFS support, a standardized email package and high uptimes. Too bad it took Rasterman, boy genius, 5 years to figure it out as well.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Well.. (Score:3, Insightful)
by mindstrm on Saturday July 20, @10:36AM (#3922279)
(User #20013 Info)
Of course the desktop is dead.

If we want a desktop that works,that will compete, there are two things that have to happen.

We need a single distribution. That's right. We need totally focused efforts.
We need a single desktop. No more of this "I can choose 10 window managers." I'm not saying take away the choice, but we need to pick one system and say "THIS IS IT" and the community can code for THAT.

Until we have focused, unified efforts towards bringing out a rock solid desktop, it won't happen. There is too much choice for the consumer.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Why Linux? by Vanders (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @10:52AM
    • Re:Well.. (Score:4, Insightful)
    by 1010011010 on Saturday July 20, @10:56AM (#3922364)
    (User #53039 Info | http://www.flyingbuttmonkeys.com/)

    Exactly. Adboce, for instance, will keep shipping their ugly Motif-baed Reader, in the absence of a standard. With Windows, there's a standard. With Apple, there's a standard. There can be deviation, and even themability, but they know that if they code in certain way, it will fit in with the rest of the system in a harmonious manner. Preferences are all stored the same way, etc.

    With Unix, it's "whatever you want to do," and not much matches. If Adobe could code for Gnome/Gtk/GConf, for instance, it would fit in well with the rest of the gnome desktop, which Sun and HP will be shipping soon. As it is, do they choose Motif? Gtk? Qt? FLTK? Eh? And if they choose an alternate toolkit, how do they query the perferences for the "native" desktop? At least on Window and Mac, they can make their MDI widgets look Windowsy and Macy because they know what's expected, and can look up preferences in an standard way.

    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
    • Re:Well.. by psavo (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @11:06AM
  • Re:Well.. by demaria (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @10:58AM
    • Re:Well.. by CaptnMArk (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @12:44PM
  • Re:Well.. by 2g3-598hX (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @10:58AM
    • Re:Well.. by uglyduckling (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @11:34AM
      • Re:Well.. by 2g3-598hX (Score:1) Sunday July 21, @12:43AM
    • Re:Well.. by rseuhs (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @12:40PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Well.. by Tyreth (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @10:59AM
    • Re:Well.. by kappax (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @02:10PM
  • Re:Well.. by Khazunga (Score:3) Saturday July 20, @10:59AM
      You're missing one key idea (Score:4, Insightful)
      by Raul654 on Saturday July 20, @11:46AM (#3922595)
      (User #453029 Info)
      Programmer man-hours are a limited resource, whether you work for Microsoft or Linux. Linux has a larger talent pool, but that effort is divided into dozens of differnet desktop enviroments, all of which, IMHO, are inferior to windows (and I haven't seen whole lot of improvement here, either). Konq is a terrible way of browsing the file system, not to mention slow. You can't even copy/cut/paste reliably between applications. So forget about coding for them. Linux is wonderful for programming and remote access, speed and reliability, but when it comes to the UI, it stinks.
      [ Reply to This | Parent ]
    • Re:Well.. by Dixie_Flatline (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @01:40PM
      • Re:Well.. by Khazunga (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @03:10PM
        • Re:Well.. by NDPTAL85 (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @03:40PM
        • Re:Well.. by Dixie_Flatline (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @08:35PM
      • Re:Well.. by Stary (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @05:55PM
        • Re:Well.. by Dixie_Flatline (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @08:41PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Well.. by JanneM (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @11:05AM
    • Re:Well.. by isorox (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @11:12AM
  • Simpleface by rbeattie (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @11:14AM
    • Re:Simpleface by __past__ (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @12:01PM
      • Re:Simpleface by rbeattie (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @12:18PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Well.. by archen (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @11:17AM
  • The problem... by CarrionBird (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @11:18AM
    • Re:Well.. (Score:5, Insightful)
    by isorox on Saturday July 20, @11:21AM (#3922481)
    (User #205688 Info | http://www.xtv.org.uk/ | Last Journal: Friday July 19, @08:48PM)
    To be honest, I couldnt care less what you think. I use enlightenment - nice pretty effects, virtual desktop (ctrl-shift-left/right/up/down). Laptop used wmaker as e is too slow. My girlfriend likes kde. I use afterstep at uni as it makes a change.

    We dont need one desktop. We dont need one distro. We dont need one operating system. You use BSD? I dont care. Use windows? Fine. use a mac? Great.

    What we do need is open API's and file formats. Then when you install acrobat, it calls WindowManager.AddProgram("Acrobat", INSTALL_DIR, "acrobrat");. Then your window manager can choose what to do with that.

    We need standard api's, so if you like GTK, acrobat calls a function - drawToolbar() - you get a GTK toolbar.
    If you switch to QT, then acrobat calls drawToolbar(), QT draws a toolbar.

    standards API's with many implementations. Hell you could set up different programs to run in different toolkits using different apis. As a user.

    I'd also have it that commercial companies can implement the standard API's in a closed api. As long as the interface is available, who cares, you arent forced to use it.

    Forcing everyone run OfficialLinux v1.0 is no better then forcing everyone to run windows.
    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
    • Re:Well.. by lpontiac (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @01:11PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Well.. by meatspray (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @01:55PM
    • Re:Well.. by Bastian (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @03:26PM
    • Re:Well.. by Niomosy (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @03:49PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Well.. by Mad Bad Rabbit (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @05:39PM
      • Re:Well.. by isorox (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @06:01PM
    • Re:Well.. by enjo13 (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @08:47PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Well.. by LMCBoy (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @12:38PM
    • Re:Well.. by tono (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @02:51PM
      • Re:Well.. by LMCBoy (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @04:30PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Well.. by Joe Tie. (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @03:45PM
  • Re:Well.. by Shelled (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @12:40PM
  • Re:Well.. by Planetes (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @01:04PM
  • Re:Well.. by thales (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @01:27PM
  • Re:Well.. by mickwd (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @01:33PM
  • Re:Well.. by Flower (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @02:04PM
  • Re:Well.. by mshiltonj (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @07:17PM
  • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
What a coincidence (Score:5, Insightful)
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 20, @10:37AM (#3922283)
Linux is dead everywhere but in the area where Rasterman is currently working. Imagine that!
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
raster's real contribution (Score:2, Insightful)
by mtngrown (user@guest.org.com.net) on Saturday July 20, @10:38AM (#3922284)
(User #24296 Info)

was raising the bar far higher than anyone ever before imagined.

Before e, wm's were not very interesting.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Linux needs a desktop distro (Score:3, Troll)
by oliverthered (oliverthered@NosPam.hotmail.com) on Saturday July 20, @10:40AM (#3922291)
(User #187439 Info)
Why doesn't Sues and Mandrake make a 1 CD distro, with Openoffice, KDE, Cups, The gimp, mozilla, and the best version of wine etc and a few games, and maybe apache?

I like to have 10 different databases loads of servers and evrything anyone could ever want in a distro.

My Mum wouldn't use it and doesn't need it

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Desktop - Who Cares? (Score:1)
by fire-eyes (sgtphou.fire-eyes@dynup@org) on Saturday July 20, @10:40AM (#3922292)
(User #522894 Info | http://fire-eyes.dynup.org/)
I find that it gets really old when people act like linux is competing with windows. Linux just 'is'. It doesn't have a big ass corporation behind it, and I'm GLAD it's that way.

Quit treating it like a commercial product, which has to make ingrounds on... on whatever the hell people think.

Get over it.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Frankly... (Score:5, Insightful)
by Fnkmaster (raefer@NO_SPAM_PLEASE.truexchange.com) on Saturday July 20, @10:44AM (#3922309)
(User #89084 Info | http://www.truexchange.com)
Raster isn't wrong - it is the apps that matter to end users. I think we always knew that. He's also not wrong about the GPL, though I think it's not for the reasons he states (technically the license of the OS/desktop environment shouldn't matter as long as commercial entities can develop apps for it, but in marketing/PR/perception terms, it does matter).

However, I find his defeatist attitude annoying. I think the reason for it is simple: he seems to be a pure technologist, and therefore upon observing that the technically superior OS loses on the desktop, he gives up hope, embracing the idea that making the coolest, whiz-bangest WM for the ultra-31337 geeks is the best course of action (and while at it, take pot shots at the KDE and GNOME dudes).

What we need is more people who know how to market Linux to software companies so that the damned applications will get developed. This is not a technical problem, it's a business problem: there are too few desktop Linux users, thus a relatively small business imperative for software companies to incur the overhead of porting applications. Furthermore, the fear of free clones of your application and the culture of imitation in the Free Software world scare companies aware from producing commercial products for Linux (note that I think this fear is unfounded: a sufficiently complex, powerful application takes an awful lot of effort to clone. Your work should stand on its own quality).

The reality is that we need to find more ways to entice companies to develop commercial, closed source software for Linux if we want it to succeed on the desktop, for the masses. Don't say it's already there, we all know it's not. And we need to remember that the solutions to business problems are usually not found by technical means.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Bitterness by S. Allen (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @10:52AM
  • Apps by mughi (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @12:44PM
    • Re:Apps by yuri benjamin (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @08:48PM
      • Re:Apps by Sabalon (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @10:23PM
  • Re:Frankly... by AvitarX (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @12:51PM
    • Re:Frankly... by J. J. Ramsey (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @01:19PM
  • Re:Frankly... by Jim Norton (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @03:45PM
  • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
Linux dead? (Score:1)
by drwhite on Saturday July 20, @10:46AM (#3922314)
(User #456200 Info)
Linux is never going to die...its too global...how do you stop something that is used everywhere?
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Coexistance? (Score:1)
by qubit64 on Saturday July 20, @10:48AM (#3922325)
(User #233602 Info)
Why can't linux coexist with Windows? (apart from Microsoft's tactics that will try to rid the world of linux) It seems there are lots of people who use it now. It may not have the same market share as Windows on the desktop but does it have to get that to be successful? Is having it on a select group of computers, for people who don't want to have their hand held by MS not good enough? (This isn't a rhetorical question, I don't know, enter your ideas please)
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
The Seeds are Still Being Planted! (Score:5, Interesting)
by omnirealm (mhalcrow@e[ ]yu.edu ['e.b' in gap]) on Saturday July 20, @10:48AM (#3922326)
(User #244599 Info | http://slashdot.org/)

At the start of each new school year, Microsoft hits our campus hard. They hang big banners, set up booths in the student center, and get the managers to make the on-campus computer store employees wear Microsoft t-shirts.

The BYU Unix Users Group gives its own response. This year, we're going to have a booth in the student center too. We're inviting students to bring their machines, and a group of volunteers will install Linux on their machines on the spot, for free.

We're making up flyers that read, ``Thrusday and Friday only! Get a FREE COPY of OpenOffice Suite version 1.0 (must have student ID or employee ID). Save HUNDREDS of dollars on your computer software this year!''

We're not just going to be pushing Linux, but Free Software in general. For those who are queasy about jumping full-force into Linux, we will offer to install Mozilla and OpenOffice on their Windows partitions, so they have some familiar ground to refer to when they boot into Linux.

The biggest debate in the group at the moment is which distributions to recommend to the newbies who bring their computers to the booth. I argue that since we're installing it for them, those who live on-campus and are on the university's network should use Debian because of the ease of maintenance. Others claim that Mandrake/RedHat/SuSE are more user friendly in general, and so they should be advocated instead.

In any case, we're doing what we can to let starving students know that they don't have to shell out hundreds of dollars to feed an addiction to proprietary software, when perfectly usable and functional Open Source alternatives exist for them. KDE+Mozilla+OpenOffice+Evolution is a powerful combination that makes Linux very much a viable desktop operating system.

Plus, anyone who switches over has the best support team around: the campus Unix Users Group! A perusal of our mailing list shows that we don't sleep at night until your problem is solved. :-)

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
I Missed the Obit (Score:2, Informative)
by Brown Line on Saturday July 20, @10:50AM (#3922335)
(User #542536 Info)
Last night, I just turned off Windows 98 at home.
It's replaced with the newest Red Hat. My two teen-agers love it (with the sole reservation that they can't run Final Fantasy any more). Our local parochial school is switching to Linux in its computer teaching lab. At work, we're a Fenster-frei environment: we route telephone calls, all done under BSD and SCO.

So Linux on the desktop is dead, eh? Guess a lot of people like me just missed the obituary.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Reports of my death are greatly exagerated...... (Score:2)
by cluge (cluge@no_italian-cars_fucking_com.spam) on Saturday July 20, @10:51AM (#3922340)
(User #114877 Info | http://www.italian-cars.com)
Oh boy, here are some thoughts.

1. MS had the Linux "Myths page", eventually even they didn't believe it and have changed their campaign.
2. Not so long ago "experts" were saying that Linux would never enter the mainstream.
3. More recently other experts suggest that Linux is an operating system "for web servers only"
4. Other experts say that Linux will only ever run on low end hardware and never get into the "Lucrative high end server" market. (IBM big Iron, DEC/Compaq/HP Alpha anyone?)

Will Linux succeed on the desktop? That depends on your definition, but considering what the "experts" have predicted over the years, I'd have to say that my money is on success. Experts, industrial leaders and their opinions don't mean much to me, simply because they are so often wrong about Linux.

Why do we call them "experts" again?

cluge
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Schroedinger's Cat (Score:2)
by kenthorvath on Saturday July 20, @10:51AM (#3922341)
(User #225950 Info | http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~kent/)
Linux on the desktop is both dead and alive. Linux is never going to have the market share that MS has. But, for the first time ever since I began toying with Linux back in '96, I have every one of my computers including my laptop running full time Linux setups with every piece of software that I need to be productive (OpenOffice 1.0, Evolution, Galleon/Mozilla, and some other scientific software). The user interface is now mature and elegant and is far superior to any that MS has conjured (particularly through customizability). Even my technophobic girlfriend doesn't mind using it, as long as she can boot into windows to run the occasional game that doesn't work in linux and even the Sims is working now!
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Like Blitz said (Score:2)
by SomeOtherGuy (deskjock@NOSPAMMANfirstlinux.net) on Saturday July 20, @10:52AM (#3922347)
(User #179082 Info)
Up the irons....can't kill a dead man...I'm going in.

But really...Raster has a point. What is more successful? Linux with all the fancy desktop environments and no commercial apps to speak of. OR TWM and FVWM running all the commercial apps that the Mac gets? Now that would be a deflating question to anyone who spent the most of the last few years making Linux "Look" good.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Linux Desktop is dead - sort of (Score:3, Interesting)
by Tyreth on Saturday July 20, @10:52AM (#3922348)
(User #523822 Info)
In the experience of people I talk to about computers, roughly:
* 40% seem open to hearing about Linux - they just want something easy to use, cheap, etc
* 20% are skeptical at first then very impressed when they see it ("If I set up a new business I'd definately use Linux")
* 30% would use it if it had the games they wanted
* 10% adamantly support Microsoft without knowing anything about it - perhaps just for the fun of opposing me

So in my experience, Linux has a very bright future for the desktop, at least for those people I encounter daily.

But I think the desktop is dead anyway. Rasterman says that embedded is the future - the level ground. This is true, but there is another path.

Do you think 10 years from now we are going to be using desktops too? I doubt it very much. Minority report perhaps gives us a snippet of the future. Computer "desktops" will go 3D. Maybe we will control our computer with virtual reality gloves and speak commands, or perhaps even use our mind for some simple tasks.

The future of computers will hopefully be power covered by simplicity. The way we think and use computers will change over time. We won't think "I need to use the computer to check e-mail". E-mail will become a daily part of life. Perhaps your house will say to you "You have 3 new messages". And then you respond "bring them up", and in front of you is projected an image of the e-mail, which could possibly be video rather than text. This kind of interface has no desktop. It is a simple and human way of interacting with computers. Desktops are cludgy things that expose people to some of the power of a comptuer that they don't need to see. What we need is a solution that has the simplest possible interface (like the e-mail scenario I gave) but has the potential for the user to hack it at it's base level (open source philosophy). That way the simplicity makes computers a powerful part of everyday life, but also gives the power to those who want/need to fiddle with the settings.

I think the desktop is dead. It's like having 4 remotes with 20 buttons each. In a house you hide your electricy cables, and you hide your water pipes. With computers however we expose people to desktops - which I believe are a patchwork solution. Eventually there will be no "computer" that people fight to use. There will be no monitor or keyboard. The interface will be more natural and human, integrated into the house or building.

Basically, desktops are getting close to their highest potential. The next phase will be something different, something that won't be solved by a new Windows release or by KDE 6.2 - it will require a shift in thought about how computers work, which will start off ugly at first and then progress into something beautiful looking. But as long as we have the desktop, our way of thinking will be constrained to 2 dimensions, which doesn't allow for the vast potential of computers in the near future.

(3dwm plug [3dwm.org])

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • 3d by oliverthered (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @11:16AM
    • Re:3d by Tyreth (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @11:23AM
    • Desktop is dead! (Score:4, Insightful)
    by Stiletto on Saturday July 20, @12:10PM (#3922696)
    (User #12066 Info | http://stiletto.home.attbi.com/)

    I couldn't agree more with the parent poster. It's not "Linux on the Desktop" that's dead, but the DESKTOP itself that's dead (or dying).

    Normal people don't want to use computers, in general. They want to do tasks that they consider worthwhile. They want to communicate with others asynchronously. CURRENTLY, this is done through email, and CURRENTLY it requires a computer. Who says email NEEDS to require a computer? What if your email could be read to you automatically when you walked into your apartment? Most people would see this as a usability improvement over:

    1. Sit down
    2. Turn computer on
    3. Wait
    4. Double-click
    5. Wait while phone dials
    6. Click
    7. Click
    8. Scroll
    9. Click
    10. Click
    11. Stand up

    People don't want to use computers. They want to get things done. They want to create letters and presentations. Currently this requires a computer , a printer, and a lot of typing. Does it have to be this way? No! A lot of research has gone into voice recognition and computer vision. In the future we'll just describe a document or presentation in basic terms, using a natural interface like voice or gestures, and a device will spit out what was requested.

    I predict computing's next "killer app" will be something that allows people to get rid of their computers.

    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:Linux Desktop is dead - sort of by timeOday (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @12:44PM
  • In the immediate future... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @12:45PM
  • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
Desktop Linux depends on APPS (Score:5, Insightful)
by Sleepy (scottprive.netscape@net) on Saturday July 20, @10:53AM (#3922350)
(User #4551 Info | http://127.0.0.1/)
A lot of people run Linux. A lot MORE have "tried" it, and then say to themselves "then what"?

Linux just doesn't have any good, free software, and that's what's needed to run a desktop.

At my last company, when I complained about Office attachments on the email and intraweb (against agreed-upon policy), the IT guy just gives me an Office CD and winks. When I state I run Linux at home, I get the "it's not my fault is it" (with the look of "you know, if it hurts when you slam the door on your head don't do it" look).

Linux will not even BEGIN to be appealing until people can "take their work home" (Office warez CD). As cool as CodeWeavers Crossover is - I've used it - it isn't "free" with the OS.

That's not a slam - I encourage commercial software on Linux, but the office-worker-at-home and the AOL user -- the majority of Windows users -- just want everything for free. They don't believe in Free Software or the GPL, and they don't believe installing MS Project on every computer is really stealing.

Eleet coder wanna-bees is another group -- slightly more technical than Mom -- that Linux won't win over. These people download the ISO's as soon as their released, burn em, but only try every 3rd release and then on a spare computer. Since Linux won't run his pirated games (or at least not full speed), Linux sucks. Besides, you can't run MS Visual Basic on Linux, which is an industry standard. Everyone knows you gotta program Linux in Assembly, or sometimes C. ;-)

For Linux to become more appealing to the masses, it doesn't need a lot of polish -- it's "good enough" right now. What's needed is for Microsoft needs to get tougher on licensing, which they won't do UNTIL they are SURE they have locked out the threats (by extending the Internet, apparently)

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
How hard would it be to emulate a Mac? (Score:1, Funny)
by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 20, @10:54AM (#3922355)
If you could run MacOS on top of linux, I bet you'd get a lot of people using both. I know I would.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Desktop Linux is NOT dead, just wrongly directed. (Score:4, Insightful)
by Taco Cowboy on Saturday July 20, @10:59AM (#3922381)
(User #5327 Info)


Desktop Linux is far from dead. It's NOT dead.

Just that it's not heading in the right direction.

Lots of things have been said about the ease of use thingy, but that's just scratching the surface.

What's important, looking at the larger picture, is that Linux is filled with programmers wearing beany caps.

Translation : Linux programs are wonderful, but it's just NOT the world needs.

Look at Windows. Lots of clumpsy and over bloated programs, but at least, they do what the world wants, and buys !

We have put too much emphasis on SOURCE CODE, because we wear beany caps - that is, we are the people who almost always CHANGE THE PROGRAM BEHAVIOR OURSELVES, that's why we demand the source code to the program.

But the world outside of us is that people do NOT want or need or know how to change the program's behavior, all they want is that the program does what they want - whatever they want.

That's why we have NORTON UTILITIES for Windows, and there's none of Linux.

That's why we have so much MUSIC, MP3, STREAMING, VIDEO, MULTIMEDIA utilities for Windows ... many of them are buggy like hell, but at least they ARE available.

On the other hand, what do we have here ?

KDE, GNOME, ENLIGHTENMENT, yeah, big deal !

The users need MORE THAN WINDOWING ENVIRONMENTS, they need UTILITIES that do stuffs for them !

That's what we fall short on.

That's what we need to double and tripple our efforts on.

Not that we do not have the knowhow to do it, nor that we don't have the programmer-aid to do it.

We have Kylix from Borland (FREE !) and how many of us are using Kylix to develop USEFUL UTILITIES for the users ?

Do something about this problem and we will see the Desktop Linux comes alive.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
A Grain of truth... (Score:2)
by Junta on Saturday July 20, @11:01AM (#3922391)
(User #36770 Info)
But not much more. He said what we all know, commercial apps are not so plentiful under linux and many users are scared off.

However, to say there is no future on anything but embedded and headless servers is extremely stupid. Maybe not for the common user, but among professional users who *do* care about the stability of the underlying OS and who *know* where to go to get the apps, linux is great. And not just computer professionals, I know people from various science disciplines using it as well, and also friends of mine run linux even if non-techinical, because they can ask me for help and I can usually give it quickly. The desktop is alive and well, but not for Joe Schmoe, but among professionals it is gaining considerable share... The move to an NT based kernel has appeased some, but not all Windows users sick of the underlying instability. MacOSX has a great thing going, but the price is too high. I'm sure MacOSX could stamp out linux desktops, as they offer all that does and more as far as desktop use is concerned, but the price is too high and they couldn't care less about winning anything but the Windows market...

Frankly, I think his stance is more influenced by the decline of enlightenment's popularity (and his resultant decline in fame) and potentially some business interest in his coding with regards to embedded applications. I would dare say there are just as many disadvantages in the embedded arena for linux as the desktop, since systems like QNX are much more adapted to the environment than linux...
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
not dead at all (Score:3, Insightful)
by g4dget on Saturday July 20, @11:05AM (#3922409)
(User #579145 Info)
Linux on the desktop is fine, really. I have seen quite a number of non-technical users use it, and they do OK. It is a bit disappointing to me that Linux on the desktop isn't any better than commercial desktops--it uses the same stale metaphors and the same cumbersome paradigms--but it isn't any worse either.

I think the biggest obstacle for more widespread adoption of Linux right now is the kernel. Unlike userland, where you have thousands of independently developed programs available on the same machine, the kernel is one big, monolithic chunk. While drivers could in principle be developed and distributed separately, in practice, few are. Most Linux installs that I do involve recompiling the kernel. Whether it's merely packaging or architecture, something isn't working there.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Where desktop Linux shines (Score:4, Insightful)
by maynard (maynard@j[ ]com ['mg.' in gap]) on Saturday July 20, @11:09AM (#3922430)
(User #3337 Info | telnet://dont.waste.your.time.wah | Last Journal: Sunday January 27, @09:02PM)
Desktop Linux (and BSD, excepting MaxOS X) is really only appropriate at large installations where the environment is completely controlled and administered by professionals. While it's fine for a power user to install on their home computer, it really isn't appropriate for mom and pop. For that matter, neither is Windows. This means that desktop Linux is most likely to be found supporting scientific applications, Software development houses, Health care support, corporate desktops, data entry and call centers, and cash registers. It may become a viable home desktop system in the third world, should countries like China, Korea, Peru, etc decide to invest the money necessary to create localized infrastructure to support a wide scale Linux deployment for it's citizens similar to the old teletext systems used in Europe.

To proclaim that desktop linux is dead is foolish though. I've seen some very large scale desktop Linux deployments Boston area genomics companies, universities, and software houses. These are often commercial Unix to Linux migrations, so I'm not arguing that it's hitting the Windows desktop market hard. But if you know your stuff there's definitely work to be had in this market. As long as I'm paid well for this stuff, I'd hardly call it dead! --M

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Windows has won. Face it. (Score:3, Funny)
by jsse on Saturday July 20, @11:10AM (#3922432)
(User #254124 Info | http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Saturday July 13, @09:42AM)
Has it? Has the battle ended already? Do we have a closing date in this battle?

Or you just feel tired and rest behind the lane, yell at the runners "We lost! Face it! Do you hear me? We lost, dudes!"
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Why switch? (Score:4, Interesting)
by be-fan on Saturday July 20, @11:11AM (#3922435)
(User #61476 Info)
I think the main issue that's preventing most people from switching is that it isn't worth it. Linux, on the desktop, is not that much better than Windows XP on the desktop. Its not noticibly more stable, its not noticibly faster, but there are noticible downsides (application support and ease-of-use) to using it. I've been running Linux on a desktop machine for years now, and have recently settled in pretty well with KDE 3.0 and Gentoo. I use it not because it really gains me any technical merit I don't get in Windows XP, but because I hate Microsoft, the windows-style command line interface, and that blasted tooltip that keeps popping up in the corner of my screen in XP. Still, whenever I boot back into XP (to run Photoshop or the occasional game) I have to admit that Linux really isn't technically superior anymore, at least not in ways that a desktop user would notice. XP is reasonably fast, reasonably stable, and reasonably easy to use. For those less rabid then me, then, its an easy choice. They can endure the pain of switching to Linux, for a dubious set of benifets, or they can stay with Windows. This has been the situation forever. Why did MacOS never manage to take back its market share from Windows? Its been superior (from an average desktop user's point of view) for a very long time. Simply because people didn't percieve enough benifet from doing it. Windows was *good enough* compared to what MacOS was at the time. Now, if the timing had been different, had a Linux 2.4/KDE 3.0-style desktop been available around the introduction of Windows 95, would Linux have taken off? Hell ya. People would have seen a significant benifet in moving to Linux. Thus, if Linux ever wants to beat Microsoft on the desktop, it can't settle for being a "better Windows." It has to be *more*. Not just different, but a generation ahead technically. Now, this is what Microsoft does best. When they're not designing stuff like Palladium, MS engineers come up with genuinely cool stuff. A lot of it may be ripped of from other sources, and the first implementations may be less than perfect, but overall, they keep advancing the desktop. If Linux wants to be the next Windows, it has to beat Microsoft at its own game. It has to think up the next generation of user inteface and implement it before Microsoft can.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Linux desktop (Score:1)
by dazdaz on Saturday July 20, @11:12AM (#3922439)
(User #77833 Info)
When they say the desktop is dead, they mean that Linux X11 applications have a way to go before users find they are rock solid and work flawlessly, people nowadays expect everything on demand, a house, a wife, decent X applications.

I'm personally disappointed that Rasterman does'nt continue because he likes doing it, but because he wants to be in the middle of things. Perhaps Rasterman should become the business spokesperson for Linux.

I also wish people would'nt take the viewpoint of Linux having or being in a battle with Windows. It does'nt work like that, Linux is an alternative, you either choose it or you don't. It's not designed to be a Windows competitor, that's what magazine article writers would have you believe because a good confrontation makes a good story.

>Windows has won. Face it. The market is not >driven by a technically superior kernel, or an >OS that avoids its crashes a few times a day

ok, I take a strongly traditionalist viewpoint of this, Linux should not be in any market, when they say market, the market people talk about mostly relates to click and see systems, OS X, Windows, BeOS etc, Linux like UNIX does'nt conform to "that market".

>LaM: Where do you think the future ought to lie >for desktop Linux?

>R: There is none

It's upto you Rasterman to do something about it, if you disagree and me and you too reading this.

I must say, i've lost a lot of respect for Rasterman as a Linux representative. He seems to be stuck in the present of what is out there now, but not what will be there in 5 years. No one knew Linux would be this useful and yet it is 5 years ago. For someone who is a genius coder, i'm a little disappointed that he does'nt have social foresight.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Sour Grapes (Score:1, Insightful)
by Radical Rad on Saturday July 20, @11:15AM (#3922457)
(User #138892 Info | http://www.eff.org/)

Linux is dead on the desktop.
Translation: Englightenment is dead as a Linux window manager so I hope it will be a bittersweet victory for the successful coders.

BSD is a better license than GPL because it let's people steal your code.
Translation: Would somebody please steal my code? Please? Half my life was wasted on E and now nobody wants to use it.

I offered to mould e to be the GNOME wm, but at the time Miguel was convinced you could do a desktop without a wm.
Translation: Miguel knew what a spoiled, freaky, pain in the ass I am so he pretended not to need what I had to offer.

E is there to poke and prod and do something new. KDE and GNOME are there to appeal to the masses.
Translation: KDE and GNOME appeal to the masses. The ingrateful bastards!

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
OS X (Score:3, Interesting)
by Megane on Saturday July 20, @11:16AM (#3922460)
(User #129182 Info)
Mod me down as a troll if you must, and it's sort of off-topic because the article here is talking about Linux on x86, but I've thought of "Linux on the Desktop" as total ass myself for a couple of years now. Now we get two articles in two weeks saying as much. Which is exactly why I've been working hard (and finally succeeded) to get OS X running on my old Power Mac instead of putting Yellow Dog or Debian on it.

First, XFree was a pain in the ass to get set up. I haven't tried it since 4.x, but 3.x sucked because all the setup programs wanted to compute "optimum" modelines for your monitor and display card, which inevitably never worked for me. This instead of what I wanted: resolution and refresh, from the list of VESA standard modes. Oh, but I can just edit this annoying config file, commenting out a bunch of lines for modes I don't want. If it's a pain in the ass for me, it's impossible for mom 'n' pop. Before I gave up two years ago, I think only TurboLinux 4.x had a config program with resolution/refresh selection.

Then there's getting the desktop environments running themselves. I didn't get very far on them, but in my experience, if you didn't pick the window manager favored by the distro, the others simply weren't configured to do anything useful. The only way to get menus to contain anything useful seemed to be by editing config files, and by this time I wasn't in any mood to search for more damn config files to edit.

So I decided to stay with Slackware as a lean server-only OS on my cheap x86 boxen, and wait for OS X, which at the time was just around the corner. I've had it running on a laptop since pre-release, and this week it's put new life into a creaky old Power Computing clone box. And I've got it running on the iMac my mom got a few months back. It just works, without a bunch of tweaking, partly because Macs have nowhere near the hardware nightmare that exists in the x86 world. And it's full of that unix-y goodness which let me kill a frozen AOL client on her machine remotely.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:OS X by IamTheRealMike (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @12:56PM
    • Re:OS X by cremes (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @01:30PM
    • Re:OS X by bnenning (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @03:18PM
      • Re:OS X by neuneu2K (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @07:02PM
  • Re:OS X by repetty (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @02:56PM
    • Re:OS X by IamTheRealMike (Score:2) Saturday July 20, @04:08PM
  • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
It's not competition... (Score:2, Insightful)
by pigeonhk on Saturday July 20, @11:23AM (#3922488)
(User #42292 Info | http://pigeond.net/)
I don't think Linux is competing against Windows or anything. It doesn't have to. It doesn't need to. Even though competitions do bring better products. Even though somehow you think it has to, that will not be the job of Linux to compete, it will be GNOME or KDE.

People use whatever they want to use and they need to use. As long as something is doing what it is supposed to do and user can make use of it, it wins.

I actually know some people who use Windows and they think *computers* are just like that. From time to time, it will not work, blue screen, has to reboot. Big deal.

Same theory. Some people live in the Matrix and they enjoy it even they know it. Others however might prefer to free their minds.

Windows blinds you from the truth, the truth that your computer should do more than just giving you blue screen. :)

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
just some ideas.. (Score:1)
by alexc (alexander_chan@y[ ]o.com ['aho' in gap]) on Saturday July 20, @11:33AM (#3922522)
(User #37361 Info)
Would Mandrake, Suse should partner with a HPQ to create a desktop computer with linux bundled with it ? maybe that would work. if more end users use it then more software companies would create more user friendly apps. Software companies don't want to create for linux b/c there aren't enough users. then again maybe IBM should have spent more money developing end user apps. More LUG's and similiar groups should be advocating and helping companies /users convert to linux.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
3 words (Score:1)
by huckda on Saturday July 20, @11:37AM (#3922540)
(User #398277 Info | Last Journal: Wednesday July 17, @04:03AM)
COMMAND LINE INTERFACE:

there is absolutely no need for a 'desktop' in Linux. EVERYTHING can be done at the CLI, for the BASIC user. e-mail: pine, elm; word processing: pico, vi, vim, emacs, jove; web browsing: links, lynx.

And if you need pretty pictures to do your web browsing, someone could code a browser much like the early DOS apps that would just pop up in a different graphics mode and voila, pretty pictures.

Then again I am only playing advocate to a little demon called the CLI because I hate the Devil that is called GUI.

--Huck
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Austrailai? (Score:1, Flamebait)
by Xenex (.xenex. .at. .opinionstick.com.) on Saturday July 20, @11:37AM (#3922545)
(User #97062 Info | http://www.opinionstick.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday May 09, @08:33AM)
Austrailai? What do you mean exactly?

I've just asked Google [google.com], and it can't answer my question. Nor can E2. [everything2.com]

Did you mean "Australian"? I'm guessing so. Now, you're forced to preview a story before submitting, and on a standard QWERTY keyboard the 'n' and the 'i' are far apart. So, simply, where the hell did you pull "Austrailiai' from?
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
My opinion, for what its worth (Score:2)
by Restil on Saturday July 20, @11:41AM (#3922561)
(User #31903 Info | http://206.54.177.105/)
And its not worth much, but here goes. I've found, from searching and testing, and trying, that most of the linux desktop/window managers have one thing in common. They tend to focus on eyecandy without as much effort on the useability. I tend to pride myself on the fact that most applications I can sit down and tinker with for 5 minutes and have all figured out. It took me longer than that to figure out how to maximise a window in E the first time. Of course, once I know HOW to do it, its not a problem, but Linux will never make the desktop if the average user has as much trouble as I did. The desktop should not be the most difficult application to figure out. Yes, I know RTMF, and yes, all those helpful popup help windows were there to guide me.

Indeed quite a few window managers are as easy to figure out as Windows, primarily because they look just like it. For better or worse it seems to be a rather intuitive interface. Either that, or everyone's gotten so used to it over the years that its become second nature.

Effort with the intent to spur the Linux desktop should be placed in developing an interface more intuitive than the standard. One that any joe user with half a brain can sit down at for the first time and figure out with a minimum of frustration. At the same time, keep it configurable enough to not be completely ignored by the more advanced crowd.

-Restil
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Space between Death and Triumph (Score:4, Insightful)
by DevilsEngine on Saturday July 20, @11:49AM (#3922604)
(User #581977 Info)
It's quit tempting to look on Windows as the Nazis, or the Mongol Horde -- a force that must be crushed if civilization is to be saved. If this is your working analogy, then there is only total victory or inglorious death.

However, much as we might like it, the world is not populated by dragons and operating systems are not the tools of St. George.

Linux is not dead. Not now, nor is that a likely event any time in the near future. It's equally unlikely that Linux will soon drive Windows into the sea.

Windows will continue to be dominant on the consumer desktop for the immediate future. Windows has the applications, the games, and the thousands of developers grinding out the product. Could they do better work on Linux? Possibly, but it's not going to happen. Not with a relatively tiny marketplace further divided by flavors of installation and interface.

Linux will continue to drive servers and as the desktop of enthusiasts. It's a niche operating system, now, and likely forever.

For those that gnash their teeth over the evil empire, fear not! All empires crumble with time. But when something comes to push back the dark forces of Mordor, it will almost certainly NOT be Linux. It will be something clean and new, something that has a Vision (upper case "V") of computer interaction that goes past the creaky, cranky interfaces we have now and gives us a new way to relate to our machines. When it happens, Windows will go into the C/PM bin before Bill Gates can debug his digital living room.

And Linux will still be there, clanking along, doing it's job.

There is some space between death and triumph. Kind of like Switzerland.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Desktop Linux isn't dead, but it sure isn't ready (Score:1)
by CurtisRWC (`curtis' `at' `faac.net') on Saturday July 20, @11:51AM (#3922616)
(User #520668 Info)
At home, I've been using Linux for an all-purpose server for years (various versions of Slackware, for those of you that care). Mail, web, firewalling, NAT, etc. Works like a charm. In fact, it consistantly outperforms the faster Win2k server sitting right next to it. Great stuff. I've had the same luck with BSD, and there are many many places where Linux on the server side is the right way to go.

That being said, desktop Linux is completely awful.

Now, don't get me wrong, X, Gnome, KDE, etc are all excellent strides in the right direction. All the various office apps, Evolution, the windows-like file managers, and every other little applet that helps make the Linux GUI experience what it is are generally very good pieces of software. However, it is hardly ready for prime time.

For example, just for kicks I put a fresh hard drive in my trusty IBM Thinkpad A2Om (ok, not so trusty, but whatever). I grabbed the latest network install boot image of Mandrake Linux (which I have found has one of the better default GUI setups around) and went at it. A few hours later, I had a bootable machine. So far, so good. It detected everything I needed it to, was running at 1024x768, etc.

Things went downhill from there. I tried to set up mail, both through KMail and Evolution. Neither of them were too keen on getting hooked up to my IMAP server. I experienced several crashes, and when I moved the laptop into a different network, Gnome didn't like that it couldn't resolve my hostname (even though I was running DHCP). Also, even with 128mb of RAM and a 512mb swap file, things ran slightly slowly.

Anyhow, none of these things are serious problems that I couldn't have worked around, but all of them were annoying. Now, compare this to popping in a Win2k or XP disk and having a completely operational, optimized for the user experience, interface. Sure, it isn't going to work out of the box all the time, but it will sure do it more than Linux will.

Now, before you start in with your reasons why I could have done this or that or the other differently, don't. None of it matters. No matter what you say, what I did above will be the one and only test a "regular" user does. If it looks at all to them to be inferior to Windows in the first few minutes of use, it is all over. Sad? Maybe. True, hell yes.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Sour grapes? (Score:1)
by thk on Saturday July 20, @12:00PM (#3922656)
(User #142232 Info | http://life.bio.sunysb.edu/ee/keitt/)
As far as I can tell, Raster wrote a tricked out monstrosity that had no clear direction and was rightly abandoned by Gnome and pretty much everyone else (which is not to say that parts of it weren't brilliant bits of coding). Now that he's failed in that arena, he's declaring it dead. Gnome has had its growing pains, but its a pretty good desktop. I've used it everyday since v1 (and cursed it more than a few times, but probably much less than I would have windows).
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Credibility (Score:2)
by Outland Traveller (dmichaud@amergin . o rg) on Saturday July 20, @12:00PM (#3922657)
(User #12138 Info | http://www.amergin.org)
I think Rasterman has a credibility problem. When he left redhat there were many rumours that part of the reason was that enlightenment's code was not maintainable, scalable, and flexible enough to go in the desktop direction redhat wanted.

Now jump forward to the present, with XF86 4.2, Gnome 2.0, Galeon, Mozilla 1.0, Evolution 1.0, Abiword 1.0, OggVorbis 1.0, KDE 3.0, hell, even nautilus is improved. The reality is that RedHat's (and other distos') desktop environment *is* significantly better than it was then.

The only thing that hasn't gone anywhere is rasterman's enlightnenment. Now, I used enlightenment back in the day, and I give it a lot of respect for being the first eye-candy for linux that attracted casual desktop users, but the world has moved on.

It looks like Linux on the desktop is everywhere but dead, and rasterman is a hypocrite for saying differently.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:Credibility by josh crawley (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @12:51PM
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
It's the usability, stupid! (Score:3, Interesting)
by DrXym on Saturday July 20, @12:10PM (#3922698)
(User #126579 Info)
I really don't understand why Linux is dominated by the head-up-the-ass attitude that users are lusers. A good, well designed desktop helps everyone. OS X is very easy to use whether you're a newbie or an expert. Apple took the time to create a simple UI, one which is intuitive, where the settings are in one place and where there aren't a zillion advanced settings cluttering up things.

As a power user on OS X I don't feel constricted by this. I still run X and various Unix tools thanks to fink and I find the UI to be straightforward and easy to use. In other words, the simplicity helps me get on with stuff rather than wasting hours reading through FAQs or HOWTOs just trying to figure how to share a folder or whatnot.

The same cannot be said for a Linux desktop. I'm constantly wasting my time trying to find some stupid option in the zillion control panels KDE/GNOME puts up for me, or swearing at the stupid help system that doesn't integrate distro help with KDE/GNOME help with manpage help etc., or scratching my head trying to figure out to get my scanner to be recognized, or grinding my teeth because the distro fills its multiple menus of apps with cryptic apps with names starting with g or k.

It doesn't have to be that way. Unless Linux becomes usable for everyone, not just experts it will never get on the deskop. Besides, the more users there are, the more jobs there are for admins and developers to meet demand. I would have thought it's in everyone's interest to see it succeed.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
The desktop is as dead ... as the written page (Score:3, Insightful)
by wytcld on Saturday July 20, @12:13PM (#3922709)
(User #179112 Info | http://slashdot.org/)
There's this great thing that's been happening in Western culture over the last century, which consists in bringing visual intelligence to parity in media with verbal. But there's also this childish notion many tend towards in our culture (in most cultures) that if we valued A over B before, and now we learn that B has special value which had been overlooked in favor of A, then the revaluing of B should also demote A. Thus for instance there are many examples from "feminism" and "culture theory" of the equation of the written word with "linear" thinking and even "patriarchial" ideology, with some notion that this A should be overthrown by B. Well, we don't need the antithesis to triumph, we need the synthesis.

Visually, despite all the new visual media from photography forward, we're still a pretty stupid culture. Most of our smarts are still in texts, from books to the ASCII files that make up most all the code and configuration of *NIX systems. And the main use of computers in business is in preparing, exchanging, storing and searching texts. It's going to be this way for a long time, because text is a place where human beings have established a foundation of collective brilliance that goes far beyond the world's best video collection. It's not going to be replaced by a Matrix-like collective video game anytime soon. And the moves in that direction will likely be rendered by text-based *NIX systems.

Linux is just about there for handling text. AbiWord and OpenOffice will, within the year, have parity with anything else, and price advantage. XFree is anti-aliased. The major thing missing is the equivalent of Quark or PageMaker, and maybe a font front-end that's as simple as Adobe, so that Linux becomes backward compatible with print production.

Computer games aren't anything most offices want to see their employees playing anyhow. What they care about is systems that allow workers to transparently produce and interact with texts. And that's what most independent knowledge workers care about too - even most programmers. Code is text, "higher level" tools that let you draw connections between objects in visual space will continue to suck for all but the most brain-dead programming.

And the only part of the workforce that doesn't need to be literate any more is the unemployed.
___
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Arr, ze apps.. (Score:1)
by RumbaFlex (randomflux@dr.com) on Saturday July 20, @12:25PM (#3922742)
(User #465472 Info | http://www.ennuidesign.com)
If Adobe launched only Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign, macromedia pushed Flash mx and Director, linux would find itself swamped in people wanting to shed the claustrophobic greed-soaked straight-jacket of ms-os'es. Okay, the gimp is an outstanding piece of free sofware, but compared to Photoshop it blows chunks bigtime. Not to say i haven't seen stunning art created with gimp..
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
An idea (Score:1)
by brsmith4 (brsmith4@eng.usf.edu) on Saturday July 20, @12:27PM (#3922753)
(User #567390 Info)
The thing about companies like microsoft, is that they have this evaluation thing with their software. They get a bunch of joe blow users to check it out and see if they can pick it up really quick. Then they make adjustments to the UI according to the way these people pick this crap up or bitch about it. They also hire people that make the design decisions from a joe user standpoint. If the linux community really wants linux to thrive as a desktop OS (it would be nice due to the support form other vendors that it would bring, but I could really care less at this point) we will need to implement something similar. Get some joe idiots (joe is a good first name for this example :) to sit down and point out the things that they don't like and either fix it, or create a new desktop that is for the true computer idiot. we need feedback from even the lowest of morons because windows can easily be used by one of them. Unless you are her. [theonion.com]
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
AOL Machine (Score:2, Interesting)
by rajafarian on Saturday July 20, @12:28PM (#3922755)
(User #49150 Info)
Hey, I was thinking that perhaps an AOL machine would succeed. What is an AOL Machine? Well such machine would be sold at K-Mart, er Walmart, with a full-blown AOL browser (based on Mozilla?) and OpenOffice in a (KDE?) Linux-based system. The intended customer is Gramma or Grampa who all they really want the computer for is to type letters and do "AOL" type stuff. AOL could also sell services like tax preparation services via their AOL interface. Not EVERYONE knows what Windows is, anyway. This would be based on a current package management system and kept up to date by AOL. Maybe they could send you quarterly upgrade CD's.

yes, no, maybe?

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Not according to Walmart (Score:1)
by SailFly on Saturday July 20, @12:28PM (#3922757)
(User #560133 Info | http://jumbotech.com/)

They are selling both Mandrake and LindowsOS PCs.
Duron 900, 128M, 20G, Mandrake for $391.

Walmart [walmart.com]

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
What? I can't upgrade to Gnome 2? (Score:1)
by Linuxathome on Saturday July 20, @12:37PM (#3922790)
(User #242573 Info)
LaM: Will e still play nicely with the new GNOME? Can it readily be set up > as the window manager in a GNOME 2 system?

R: Simple answer: no :)

I currently use E 0.16 solely, with gnome libs installed to run gnome apps. Rasterman makes it sound like I can't upgrade to the Gnome 2 libs and be able to still run E. Am I wrong here?

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Yellow Headlines and Slashdot. (Score:2)
by Picass0 (`shadowman99' `at' `eudoramail.com') on Saturday July 20, @12:38PM (#3922795)
(User #147474 Info | http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Thursday June 20, @02:04PM)
Slashdot once again gives us a most unfair slant on an insightful interview. It's important to ACTUALLY RED THE INTERVIEW before getting your panties in a wad. But no, that's to much to ask of Anguished or CmdrTaco.
LaM: Where do you think the future lies for desktop Linux?
   
  Rasterman: Not on the desktop. Not on the PC. Not on anything that resembles what you call the desktop. Windows has won. Face it. The market is not driven by a technically superior kernel, or an OS that avoids its crashes a few times a day. Users don't (mostly) care. They just reboot and get on with it. They want apps. If the apps they want and like aren't there, it's a lose-lose. Windows has the apps. Linux does not. Its life on the desktop is limited to nice areas (video production, though Mac is very strong and with a UNIX core now will probably end up ruling the roost). The only place you are likely to see Linux is the embedded space. Purpose-built devices to do a few things well. There is no encumbent app space to catch up with as a lot of the apps are custom written. It's still a mostly level playing field. This is where the strengths of Linux can help make it shine.
Rasterman isn't saying anything that doesn't get said on /. about a thousand times a day. VHS won over Beta. Sometimes the better product doesn't earn public mindshare.

Rasterman continues to develop e. You can compile and run e wherever, on a desktop, handheld, knock yourself out. He's done nothing more than size up where Linux is at a market sector. And at the moment he is right. Where he is wrong is in assuming the market will not change.

He is also correct in saying the apps are the thing. Apps need to become easier to install for a normal computer user, and need to be better integrated with each other. Apps also need to talk to the Windows and Mac world. Flame all you want, but Miguel de Icaza is on of the few Linux people who are looking at the consumer and attempting to give them what they want in Linux.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Rasterman (Score:2, Funny)
by haroldhunt on Saturday July 20, @12:41PM (#3922809)
(User #199966 Info | http://xfree86.cygwin.com/)
Rasterman: Desktop Linux is Dead

10 years later...

Desktop Linux: Rasterman is Dead
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Dead?! It's not even born yet! (Score:4, Insightful)
by erroneus on Saturday July 20, @12:41PM (#3922811)
(User #253617 Info | http://www.d-n-a.cc/)
Linux is strongest as a server.

It's easier to enter that market and to build a reputation. That part of Linux is working very well for the community. With all the news about various companies using Linux for processing vastly significant amounts of data for vastly significant purposes, in some aspects, Linux is leaving all others in the dust.

It's Linux's reputation that will eventually bring it to the desktop, however. It's not the eye-candy of elightenment. It's not all the cool object-oriented inner-workings of GNOME. The reputation of Linux's reliability, availability and affordability that will eventually pull it onto desktops of home and corporate users.

First and foremost, if a more agressive push to the desktop is to happen any time soon, is to more completely and accurately emulate the Windows look and feel. It doesn't matter that it's "inferior." The "inferior" argument hasn't held since day-1. It needs to be familiar to the people who want to use it. If they expect "Network Neighborhood" then give'm Network Neighborhood.

It is not yet time to strengthen the weaknesses at the expense of existing stengths. Linux has a lot of strong points that are not being put to full use.

The demand for the desktop will come in time but there should be no major push for it. If there were to be a huge push for it, it would mean a radical series of changes such as a more well-defined "LSB" and strict adherance to it. We would need to come up with a "Linux Standard Desktop" definition that GNOME and KDE and any other players should target themselves to. Graphics and multimedia standards will have to be rigidly defined and adhered to.

These changes would have to happen very quickly and abruptly. It would cause a great deal of stress and confusion across the board. I say let it happen gradually and take the pressure off the desktop developers. There is no rush... not yet anyway. (Maybe after Win2k is pulled from the shelves.)

In the mean time, keep "Linux" in the public's eye and make them want it more and more by focusing on it's existing and growing strengths. Showing the public a weak, buggy and kludgey desktop will only sour public opinion regardless of how much work and pride it represents the developers. The "first impression" will stick regardless of what changes happen after the fact.

Linux on the desktop is not ready for prime-time. Let's not put it out there until it's ready. For now, let it remain the domain of the "L337" and let the public have Windows + Samba.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
oh god (Score:1)
by happy monday on Saturday July 20, @12:51PM (#3922843)
(User #574985 Info)
Why am i such a computer masochist? Why do i bother becoming involved with the unpopular, "better" computer systems? First it was Amiga, now Linux that I have to feel bad about when things don't go right. Ugh.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:oh god by Oswald (Score:1) Saturday July 20, @01:24PM
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • 33 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • (1) | 2 (Slashdot Overload: CommentLimit 50)
    		  Buck-passing usually turns out to be a boomerang.
    All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2002 OSDN.
    [ home | awards | contribute story | older articles | OSDN | advertise | self serve ad system | about | terms of service | privacy | faq ]