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Red Hat Explains Stance on KDE/Gnome Desktop Changes
Red Hat SoftwarePosted by Hemos on Monday September 16, @09:34AM
from the creating-unity dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A lot of people are angry over the changes RedHat has done to KDE and Gnome in their latest beta, code-named Null. They have basically "nullified" all the default themes and settings with which each desktop attempts to posture for more users. Instead, there is now a beautiful unified look. To explain RedHat's stance, Owen Taylor writes this piece here. I hope that RedHat successfully forces both Gnome and KDE to become compatible with one another which would result in the creation of a single desktop. This would be the greatest gift to the Linux world."

 

 
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Red Hat Explains Stance on KDE/Gnome Desktop Changes | Log in/Create an Account | Top | 384 comments | Search Discussion
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(1) | 2 | 3 (Slashdot Overload: CommentLimit 50)
Hmmm... (Score:2, Funny)
by cuvavu on Monday September 16, @09:36AM (#4265196)
(User #111503 Info)
Begun the flame-war has!
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
I'm with RedHat on this one (Score:1)
by davidj on Monday September 16, @09:36AM (#4265197)
(User #20784 Info | http://www.randomwalks.com/)
How is Red Hat's configuration any _less_ obnoxious than KDE/Gnome/Ximian's ?
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Unified look? Pros and Cons (Score:1)
by Lolaine on Monday September 16, @09:37AM (#4265201)
(User #262966 Info)
An unified look is good for first time users ... one look, 2 desktops ....

But since they work in a very different way ... is this good? I mean, KDE control center != Gnome Control Center, Customization is different, Nautilus and Konqueror are a lot different ...
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
screens pls! (Score:1)
by nempo on Monday September 16, @09:38AM (#4265212)
(User #325296 Info)
Can we get some screenshots of these desktops so that we may actually see how they look.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Why do we need "one unified" desktop? (Score:4, Informative)
by ishpeck on Monday September 16, @09:39AM (#4265214)
(User #160581 Info | http://www.paingiver.com/)
I, for one, like the different options we have in terms of desktop environments. I don't want either KDE or GNOME to go away.

I think the different desktop environments are important the way it's important to have variation in the gene pool.

We can only attain perfection through variety.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Grumbling is pointless - we should applaud Redhat (Score:1, Interesting)
by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 16, @09:39AM (#4265215)
You can't have your cake and eat it, unfortunately. If your wish is to see Linux achieve large scale desktop penetration, you need to acknowledge that the mainstream user wants one consistent interface, look and feel, etc. If they are a "power user", they'll hunt down the options you think they should have anyway, and customize quite happily. Don't worry about it!
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
No, a beautiful gift for Linux (Score:1)
by PhysicsGenius (physics_seeker AT yahoo DOT com) on Monday September 16, @09:39AM (#4265216)
(User #565228 Info | Last Journal: Thursday September 12, @02:09PM)
would be choice. Which they've "nullified" by quashing the innovations that each project has made over the last year. I'm noting to say which manager I prefer[1] but let me just say that Linux is all about choice. RedHat, in removing that choice, has proved themselves once again to the Microsoft of the Linux world. If I wanted to subsume my options under whatever some corporate entity wanted I'd use XP or MacOS.

[1] Because every time I say that "KDE rules and Gnome is the ugliest piece of crap I've ever seen" a flameware erupts.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Unified Desktop (Score:4, Insightful)
by Animgif (Benton,Wink&Bus,UTexas,edu) on Monday September 16, @09:40AM (#4265225)
(User #96529 Info | http://www.animgif.com/)
I couldn't agree with RedHat's statement any more. I definately feel that a unified look and feel is something that Linux has always needed. People need to be able to look at a system and recognize it. You can always recognize Windows by the look of it, as it should be for Linux. Users need this to use Linux. If you want people to use Linux for their desktop they must first feel comfortable with it...
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
    #the only look you need _ (Score:5, Funny)
    by DrSkwid (slashspam@@@cuntbubble...com) on Monday September 16, @09:53AM (#4265341)
    (User #118965 Info | http://www.hardlight.couk.com/)
    a few others

    $bash>
    ;
    c:\>

    nothing else necessary

    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:Unified Desktop by Anonymous Coward (Score:3) Monday September 16, @09:56AM
  • Re:Unified Desktop by AccUser (Score:1) Monday September 16, @10:41AM
  • Re:Unified Desktop by Broken Bottle (Score:1) Monday September 16, @10:41AM
    • Re:Unified Desktop (Score:4, Insightful)
    by rseuhs on Monday September 16, @10:47AM (#4265706)
    (User #322520 Info | http://roland.seuhs.com/)
    So essentially you say that we all should run one desktop dictated by a single distributor.

    No, this is not what we need. Just like we don't need a "unified" CPU-maker and a "unified" PC-vendor we don't need a "unified" Linux distribution.

    If we would need that, we would all run Macs now.

    DOS/Windows is so entrenched because:

    • People are used to it
    • OEMs have to take great risks by installing anything that is not Windows.
    • All the software is there

    RedHat having their great "unified" desktop won't make Photoshop run on it, it won't void the contracts OEM have with Microsoft and it won't make people forget about Windows.

    However, both KDE and GNOME are usable enough and similar enough so that a Widnows user will have no problem using it (especially if you choose the Windows-config on your first login in KDE.) so that is already solved.

    What we still need is:

    • a WINE that works reliably
    • OEMs preinstalling Linux

    I'm putting big hope in Codeweavers to produce a usable Wine that is easy to install and works with most office-software. - On all distributions, not only on RedHat.

    and not distributors playing monopoly-unification games and reducing inter-distribution interoperability.

    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
      Re:Unified Desktop (Score:4, Insightful)
      by Animgif (Benton,Wink&Bus,UTexas,edu) on Monday September 16, @10:52AM (#4265750)
      (User #96529 Info | http://www.animgif.com/)
      No, I don't think that we should all use the same distro from the same distributor. What I do think is that if Linux is going to succeed in the consumer market, then there must be a noticable face for the consumer to identify with. This is what Windows has done. Most users couldn't tell you the difference in the versions of Windows, other than the newer on is prettier.

      In contrast to what you say above, I do think that a unified face will allow more software to be ported to Linux. As companies see that the market is maturing, they will be more likely to take the jump to a linux version because there is less risk to there bottom line. You have a chicken and egg fiasco, which will come first, products or customers? I definately feel that this more identifiable "version" of RedHat Linux will go far is helping the cause. Consumers will now be able to focus on making linux work for them, instead of making Linux work.
      [ Reply to This | Parent ]
        Re:Unified Desktop (Score:5, Interesting)
        by rseuhs on Monday September 16, @11:32AM (#4266056)
        (User #322520 Info | http://roland.seuhs.com/)
        No, I don't think that we should all use the same distro from the same distributor. What I do think is that if Linux is going to succeed in the consumer market, then there must be a noticable face for the consumer to identify with. This is what Windows has done. Most users couldn't tell you the difference in the versions of Windows, other than the newer on is prettier.

        Oh, not another one explaining the success of Microsoft. Face it: Microsoft is successful because IBM gave them the OS-monopoly in 1981. Everybody would have been successful with that, even Microsoft which never really did anything other than following the market. Microsoft has delayed the wide adoption of a GUI (every other major platform had a GUI long before 1990, but Windows 3.1 was the first usable GUI for DOS and came in 1993), they delayed the wide adoption of the Internet (In the early 90's Bill Gates himlelf said that "Internet will never be popular" and "The Internet? We are not interested in it") and PDAs (Go! invented the first PDA, Microsoft killed them with a lot of FUD and PenWindows which came out 2 years afterwards - which was dropped after Go! went bankrupt. Great, eh? PenWindows only use was to kill a company, advancing technology was not really important for MS)

        So please stop telling me Microsoft's great secret of success. In real life, Microsoft is one of the most chaotic and incompetent companies.

        Microsoft's only interest is maintaining the status-quo. The only reason we have Windows now is because everybody else already had a GUI for years and Microsoft had to follow.

        In all new markets like Webservers for example, Linux is doing great - better than Windows. In all old markets where people have tons of programs and documents to lose, Linux doing not so good.

        We need backwards-compatibility or WINE. Everything else is already there.

        In contrast to what you say above, I do think that a unified face will allow more software to be ported to Linux. As companies see that the market is maturing, they will be more likely to take the jump to a linux version because there is less risk to there bottom line. You have a chicken and egg fiasco, which will come first, products or customers?

        Customers.

        I definately feel that this more identifiable "version" of RedHat Linux will go far is helping the cause. Consumers will now be able to focus on making linux work for them, instead of making Linux work.

        Nonsense.

        Currently Joe installs Linux and either stays with it because he likes it better or drops it because doesn't run.

        How will that change? RedHat's GUI will be as new as stock-KDE for Joe (only uglier), so why should Joe be more likely to keep using it?

        RedHat won't enable Linux on the masses' desktops. Codeweavers will.

        [ Reply to This | Parent ]
      • Re:Unified Desktop by krogoth (Score:2) Monday September 16, @01:24PM
      • Re:Unified Desktop by rseuhs (Score:2) Monday September 16, @02:27PM
    • Re:Unified Desktop by neowintermute (Score:1) Monday September 16, @01:46PM
    • Re:Unified Desktop by eno2001 (Score:1) Monday September 16, @02:01PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Unified Desktop by 4of12 (Score:3) Monday September 16, @11:27AM
  • Re:Unified Desktop by siskbc (Score:1) Monday September 16, @12:10PM
  • Re:Unified Desktop by kin_korn_karn (Score:2) Monday September 16, @12:14PM
  • oh that's why.. by gl4ss (Score:1) Monday September 16, @12:22PM
  • Re:Unified Desktop by BlackHawk-666 (Score:1) Monday September 16, @12:32PM
  • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
How dare they ? (Score:4, Funny)
by MosesJones on Monday September 16, @09:40AM (#4265227)
(User #55544 Info)
A standard desktop ? Then how will all the prima-donna point out how their desktop is so much better because of this or that bell and whistle.

What a horrible idea, leveling the playing field and have a standard theme that concentrates on usability and then a pure battle of abilities to determine who underpins it. If there can be no differentation in terms of buttons and icons then how would people judge if not by "see-through windows" v "tear-off tabs" and other such pointless arguments and wars.

Terrible concept, concetrate a team on a decent standard theme, and then have competition for the best engine behind it....

Umm wait, isn't this in effect the same as the Video card market where standards have led to the engines (the cards) being bought and swapped purely on the grounds of ability, sure each has "special" instructions, but for 99% of applications no one cares.

Oh and isn't it the same as the PC market, one instruction set, AMD v Intel.

Oh I see, thats what they want, what a great idea now I understand.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Here are some screenshots (Score:1, Informative)
by dg123 on Monday September 16, @09:40AM (#4265232)
(User #217900 Info)
ftp://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/cont rib/texstar/screenshots/
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
This is a Good Thing (Score:4, Insightful)
by restive on Monday September 16, @09:41AM (#4265234)
(User #542491 Info)
This is a positive thing, for the reasons RedHat is stating; namely that many users don't want to make a decision between "this one" or "that one". How many times have people whined on /. that Linux will never make it to the desktop because there are too many tweaks things the users need to learn.

This is RedHat's way of making Linux more appealing to the end user. Good for them.

If you don't like it, do what I do and run Slackware (or other distro of choice), but bravo for the RedHat folks. This is a positive step.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
    Re:This is a Good Thing (Score:5, Insightful)
    by Mr_Silver on Monday September 16, @09:53AM (#4265338)
    (User #213637 Info | http://www.uberworld.org/user_info.cgi?name=Silver)
    This is RedHat's way of making Linux more appealing to the end user. Good for them

    Indeed, because if the desktop is more appealing then more people will use it and if more people use it then companies will start to consider it a viable market for software (applications and drivers) and when there is greater support for Linux then more people will move to it because it has the applications they want and so on and so on ...

    Microsoft are already doing Linux a favour with their licence changes, but that doesn't mean that we should expect people that are brave enough to change to come to the Linux side (at the moment, I'd say they're more likely to go to Apple, as they have consistency and ease of use down to a tee)

    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:This is a Good Thing by KjetilK (Score:3) Monday September 16, @10:10AM
    • Re:This is a Good Thing, but remember ... (Score:5, Interesting)
    by egghat on Monday September 16, @10:33AM (#4265603)
    (User #73643 Info)
    ... that Redhat was the major force behind Gnome, which came into existence *after* KDE (because qt wasn't completly free and open). They were the single most important distro to support Gnome instead of KDE, which has been chosen by almost all other distro makers as a default. Remember when Mandrake entered the market and basically was a Redhat with KDE? Mandrake's success told Redhat a big lesson.

    So it's kind of hmmm strange, that nowadays Redhat tries to nullify the difference between KDE and Gnome.

    But let me state it again: I think, we don't need two desktops. So every move to make those beast more similar is welcomed.

    Bye egghat.
     
    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:This is a Good Thing by krogoth (Score:2) Monday September 16, @01:33PM
  • Re:This is a Good Thing by under_score (Score:2) Monday September 16, @02:05PM
It's About Time (Score:3, Insightful)
by syntap on Monday September 16, @09:41AM (#4265244)
(User #242090 Info | http://www.syntap.com/)
I think Red Har has recognized that look and feel unification is a prerequisite to corporate entry. I understand the usual ./ user's opinion that desktop uniqueness is cool, but when you're a corporate help desk manager with a limited budget you don't need 2500 desktops looking different. It makes training more difficult too. The similarity of desktops is how MS can easily have people upgrade from Win98 to NT to 2000 to XP... the desktops are the same and retraining cost is minimal. Good for Red Hat!
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Its really not that a big deal are it? (Score:2)
by miffo.swe (hedblom@dju p o . com) on Monday September 16, @09:42AM (#4265250)
(User #547642 Info | Last Journal: Wednesday September 11, @07:35PM)
A unified desktop to the user doesnt in any way require that the underlying machinery is exactly or even remotly the same beasts. If they decides to display similar things to users in similar places and similar fashion they still can concentrate on there #1 priority. Correct me if im wrong here but i was under the impression that 99% of all effort is in the underlying processes. To my knowledge and impression little or none has really been done in usability and eycandy in the default releases.

Myself i have tweaked my Gnome2 to do all a full congirated windows dekstop would do and more. The changes i had to make are very small and should be able to make by automatic. Gnome and KDE need a little bit of polish before the distributors let them loose and i think its good if RedHat does it. If anyone feels the changes they make are good just do the same! They arent in any way planning of protecting these changes so they can progress thru the Open Source community if they are good.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Two thumbs up for Red Hat. (Score:4, Interesting)
by veddermatic on Monday September 16, @09:43AM (#4265254)
(User #143964 Info | http://www.eskimospy.com/)
Linux is all about choice, yes... and most here will complain that Red Hat is somehow taking that away from them by having a "unified" desktop.

But if Linux is *ever* to succeeed in the desktop market, it NEEDS this. IT depts. in a large company will not tolerate one product behaving different ways... imagine Bob leaning over his cubicle wall to ask Sally how to check a new email account... something that happens all the time in the real world, and Sally can't answer, because while she's good with her KDE environment, she can;t help Bob out because he got set up with GNOME.

The desktop HAS to be standardized if it going to be used in the work place. Period.

If you don't like Red Hat's "removal of choice", here's a tip: Use a different distribution, or make your own. That sure sounds like choice to me!
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
    Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. (Score:5, Insightful)
    by Uruk (mda at idatar.com) on Monday September 16, @09:49AM (#4265305)
    (User #4907 Info | http://www.oldhat.org/freenet/index.html | Last Journal: Friday July 26, @04:48PM)
    I've never understood why people were complaining about this in the first place. The software components of both GNOME and KDE are under the GNU GPL. It would be pretty difficult to deny that the GNU GPL allows these types of changes. In fact, that the license allows these types of changes is one of its main features.

    Here we have a situation where an organization takes a free software package and makes modifications to it in order to suit its needs, and then rereleases the modified package also under the GPL. What could be MORE complaint with the spirit of the GPL and free software as a whole???

    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
      Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. (Score:5, Informative)
      by ajs (ajs@ajs.com) on Monday September 16, @10:08AM (#4265421)
      (User #35943 Info | http://www.ajs.com/~ajs/)
      The complaints took several forms:
      • Some KDE-folks (probably not core people, I'm not sure) went off half-cocked whining about Red Hat having "removed" functionality from KDE (e.g. not installing Konq). This was untrue, but see below...
      • Other KDE people with more level heads complained that major KDE apps in the default menus had been replaced with generic sounding terms (e.g. Web Browser) that then ran non-KDE apps (e.g. Mozilla instead of Konq). This is good from the unifying-the-desktop perspective, but it makes KDE perform terribly (since apps like evolution and Mozilla require totally different huge shared libraries to be loaded in addition to the huge share libraries of KDE). So, the complaint here is that KDE on Red Hat (null) was a pig because of the new default menu settings. You could still run all of your favorite KDE apps, they just weren't in the default menus.
      • Yet further controversy came from both the Gnome and KDE camps. This was centered around the "hijacking" of the default theme. This, IMHO is ignorable. If you don't like the default Red Hat theme, load another one (by theme here, I mean everything from tagets in menus to look-and-feel). If Gnome wants to release their own "gnome-default-theme" RPM for Red Hat 8.0 when it comes out, more power to them! KDE can do the same. Heck, Ximian already does this, along with a much nicer, more up-to-date Gnome desktop + a recent evolution.
      So, a lot of it is a non-issue, but I think the core item of making KDE less efficient by defaulting to Gnome and/or Gtk apps is worth some discussion. In the end, I think the way Red Hat did it makes sense, but only until KDE has apps that are comparable to Mozilla and evolution for the business dekstop (Konq is nice, but more of a Galeon-like browser, not the all-around contender than Mozilla is).
      [ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. by stevew (Score:2) Monday September 16, @09:55AM
      Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. (Score:5, Insightful)
      by bwt on Monday September 16, @10:17AM (#4265474)
      (User #68845 Info | http://bioinformatics.ucsf.edu/bwtaylor)
      For that matter, an IT department can declare that Gnome or KDE is the supported desktop.

      So you would rather have the local IT managment make the choice for the user than have Red Hat make changes so that the distinction isn't important? I don't really see how this is "choice".

      As for masking the differences between Gnome and
      KDE to the end customer - that is the same as doing
      it the MS way or hit the highway. No thanks!

      That is absurd to say about any GPL application. If you don't like Red Hat's choices, then you are free to change them at multiple levels including changing the source code on your local machine. Why you think that it's OK for KDE or Gnome to make choices for look and feel, but not OK for RedHat is completely incomprehensible.
      [ Reply to This | Parent ]
    • Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. by crawling_chaos (Score:3) Monday September 16, @10:18AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. by merky1 (Score:1) Monday September 16, @10:01AM
  • Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. by glitch23 (Score:1) Monday September 16, @12:11PM
  • Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. by krogoth (Score:2) Monday September 16, @01:50PM
  • IT departments choose anyway by g4dget (Score:2) Monday September 16, @01:55PM
  • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
Nothing major (Score:1)
by thesadmac (thesadmac@@@mac...com) on Monday September 16, @09:43AM (#4265255)
(User #599744 Info)
Some default configs you can override. Nothing to see here.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
AMEN!! (Score:1)
by love2hateMS on Monday September 16, @09:44AM (#4265262)
(User #588764 Info)
Way to go Red Hat. The new desktops are beautiful. They do not detract from the work of KDE or Gnome developers. If anything, they prove how flexible and amazing both of these environments are. Red Hat seems to have found a great balance between branding their distribution, and supporting and participating in the Open Source community. Kudos to Red Hat.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
A quick google search... (Score:5, Informative)
by jonathan_atkinson (.moc.oohay. .ta. .nosnikta_nahtanoj.) on Monday September 16, @09:44AM (#4265265)
(User #90571 Info | http://grove.swoo.net/)
... revealed some screenshots here [kde.org].

--Jon
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Did someone say screenshots? (Score:2)
by ACK!! (bailes_1j@_2big_3foot.com) on Monday September 16, @09:44AM (#4265266)
(User #10229 Info)
Ok, some asked for screenshots for here they are.

They are the ones that say redhat, duh.

  http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/con trib/texstar/screenshots/

__________________________________________________ ______
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Choice is the key (Score:4, Insightful)
by jbwiv on Monday September 16, @09:45AM (#4265273)
(User #266761 Info)
I think the option of having a unified desktop theme is great...as long as it's truly an *option*. If the RedHat distro allows the user to choose whether they would like to install KDE or Gnome the standard way or with the new nullified look and feel, then I only see this as a good thing. Isn't one of the great benefits of Linux the fact that you have a right to choose?
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Who exactly (Score:3, Funny)
by jmu1 (jmullman&gasou,edu) on Monday September 16, @09:46AM (#4265277)
(User #183541 Info | http://www2.gasou.edu/facstaff/jmullman | Last Journal: Friday June 07, @04:09PM)
is doing all the bitching. Everything I've read has something good to say about a standard desktop.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Thumbs up to Redhat (Score:1)
by gamorck (jaylittle AT jaylittle DOT com) on Monday September 16, @09:46AM (#4265281)
(User #151734 Info | http://www.jaylittle.com/)
Well I think its finally become official: There is at least ONE linux company out of the many which will prosper. That company of course is Redhat. I think these guys have got the right ideas required to make it to the top. I think they've got the strategies and a clear grasp on the changes nessacary to propel Linux to the next level.

Keep up the good work Redhat - personally I'm very appreciative.

J
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
KDE & Gnome desiring MS control? (Score:5, Insightful)
by stienman on Monday September 16, @09:46AM (#4265282)
(User #51024 Info | http://www.ubasics.com/adam | Last Journal: Thursday February 28, @03:59PM)
Ok, so here's the analogy - Red Hat is Dell, and they want 'windows' to look different on their systems than what MS will allow.

MS complains (and forces them to comply, which doesn't apply here).

So Red Hat wants a unified look (who cares what they want, it's their distribution), but KDE and Gnome want to dictate how their software looks on someone else's machine? I don't think so! If they don't like it then they got into the wrong business.

I can't wait for someone to say, "But Red Hat isn't giving their customers a choice and linux is about choice...". That comment is ludicrous on multiple levels, given the dozens of other distributions which deliver a plain vanilla KDE/Gnome.

The linux community is a quirky bunch. Saying, "We want choice." was great until they started tacking on "Unless it's our software your changing, in that case you should choose the way we want you to choose." Desiring a distribution to change based on your opinion is no different or appalling than desiring a user to change based on your opinion. You are still assuming that the user is stupid and can't be trusted to choose their own way in the face of a default installation.

I can see the flames now...

-Adam
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
    Re:KDE & Gnome desiring MS control? (Score:4, Insightful)
    by dgb2n (dgb2n@com c a s t . n et) on Monday September 16, @10:06AM (#4265415)
    (User #85206 Info)
    I concur but only to a point.

    If the changes made were only cosmetic and easily overcome through a theme or widget change, then your argument would be complete. Unfortunately, some of the changes go beyond the cosmetic and do force users into a "Redhat flavored KDE" as opposed to the KDE on which the KDE developers have invested so much time and energy.

    Still, the GPL allows for just the kind of modifications Red Hat is executing. You can't have it both ways, either your software is open or it isn't. You may not like the changes someone is making but the license you've chosen gives them the right to do it. Ultimately if the changes Red Hat is making are detrimental to KDE, in the sense that they provide a worse environment, it should cause users to move to a different distribution. Ultimately we all vote with our feet and our wallets.

    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
  • Re:KDE & Gnome desiring MS control? by Salsaman (Score:3) Monday September 16, @10:10AM
  • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
say what now? (Score:1)
by bigmaddog on Monday September 16, @09:48AM (#4265293)
(User #184845 Info | http://premek.virtualave.net/)
"I hope that RedHat successfully forces both Gnome and KDE to become compatible with one another which would result in the creation of a single desktop. This would be the greatest gift to the Linux world."

Yeah, sure. We hate M$ for being too controling and inhibiting choice with their single dominant product, but a single unified Linux product would be a good thing. Some people apparently fail to realize that the incompatibilities that many rant about and that Red Hat would try to smooth out are a direct consequence of variety. Sure, standards are nice, but nobody pays these people to do any of this, or be compatible with any other product - they do what they like, and if you don't like it then you go to a different bunch of people. It's called choice.

The same thing applies to Red Hat themselves. If you don't like the fact that they're limiting variety of desktop environments then you go with a different distro, or set up your own desktop environment, or do whatever the hell you want to. There are lots of choices, after all, which makes this whole thing moot.
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This is good (Score:1)
by GigsVT on Monday September 16, @09:48AM (#4265294)
(User #208848 Info | http://www.electronicschat.org/ | Last Journal: Wednesday August 21, @09:01PM)
We're doing something wrong if a user is choosing between logging into GNOME or KDE because: There is an application available in one and not in the other.

I've seen and heard people say things like, "well I switched to KDE because I liked the applications better". The way things are now, people don't know that it doesn't matter what desktop they run, this Gnome/KDE silliness has given them the idea that they need to run the whole desktop just to get the apps for that desktop.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
There is nothing stopping the user (Score:2)
by bovinewasteproduct (gclarkii&vsservices,com) on Monday September 16, @09:48AM (#4265298)
(User #514128 Info | http://www.babalonfound.org/)
There is NOTHING stopping the user from installing either one of these packages from source. Sure, you loose some of the laziness factor, but..

Sure, if Red Hat said "Installing anything but our software voids your support", you might have a case. But in this case?? No...

BWP
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Hopefully this won't be necessary soon (Score:5, Interesting)
by Telex4 on Monday September 16, @09:49AM (#4265300)
(User #265980 Info | http://www.tomchance.uklinux.net/)
What RedHat have done is really pretty insignificant. They've create a new artwork set that is applied by default to both KDE and GNOME so they look similar by default, and they've modified some codee here and there so they behave in a more similar fashion. In effect, they have made the first step towards making the two major desktop environments more compatable.

Note: they have not taken away any user choices. You can still completely change your KDE/GNOME appearance, perhaps even back to the KDE/GNOME defaults. The only things that might bug users are the changes they've made to the code, but we don't yet know what they are, or how significant they are, so we'll have to wait and see.

I for one would welcome it. I'd change my themes straight away, because I've spent far too much boredom-time making my KDE3 desktop look exactly how I want it. But I also had to spend quite a while getting GNOME and GTK+ apps to look right so they almost blend in with my KDE3 apps and desktop.

The final goal here is of course compatability in themes. I.e. you download and install a KDE theme, and you can then make your GTK apps look identical, either with the same theme, or a mirror package. It's something even RMS has proposed, and something that will make life a lot more pleasant for those aesthetic pedants like myself, without taking away any of the choice we have in desktops and looks. Hopefully RedHat will find a constructive way of using these code modifications to help the KDE & GNOME projects achieve this "integration".

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Red Hat Did Good (Score:1)
by LordYUK on Monday September 16, @09:49AM (#4265302)
(User #552359 Info | http://www.threemoons.net/)
well, if I read the article correctly, all they said was that they made them look/act as closely as possible out of the box... it doesnt sound like they took anything away from either, just set the preconfigured options so that they'd look the same to someone like me, who doesnt currently use linux but might one day want to install it. Its the same with Windows, they set the preconfigs the same, and if you dont like them, you change them. But conformity is nice, out of the box. (in other words, if I watch Bob install red hat, and then I go home and install red hat, its nice to know what its supposed to look like when it boots, rather than getting something thats completely different, albeit perhaps not wrong)
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Pictures of their desktop (Score:3, Interesting)
by Mr_Silver on Monday September 16, @09:49AM (#4265306)
(User #213637 Info | http://www.uberworld.org/user_info.cgi?name=Silver)
You can find pictures here [gnomedesktop.org]

I have to say, it does look very nice and I (being in the "lets have one desktop and do it right for the sake of consistency and adoption" camp) will definately be installing it when it is released.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
I don't like it (Score:1)
by Norny (norny at geocities dot com) on Monday September 16, @09:50AM (#4265310)
(User #9940 Info | http://www.atthat.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday September 25, @04:07PM)
I can't disagree more with a unified desktop. It might make it easier to for Redhat to manage a distribution or something, but the whole reason Gnome was created was people didn't like KDE. KDE users use KDE cause they don't like Gnome.

I loaded up Null last week, ran Gnome, and was not very impressed with the changes. I think I'll stick with Slackware or Mandrake. They don't change the interface.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
I'm not certain what the fuss is about... (Score:1)
by Hugh Kir on Monday September 16, @09:51AM (#4265319)
(User #162782 Info)
From Redhat's standpoint, this move makes sense, because they want to provide their users with a simple, ready-to-use system, and the less decisions a user has to make in order to get that, the better. On the other hand, if you prefer to use Gnome or KDE settings instead of the Redhat ones, there's nothing stopping anyone from changing those settings, or even grabbing Gnome or KDE and installing from scratch (I do that often myself, particularly because I enjoy playing with the unstable branches of things). Given that the other obvious option for Redhat would've been to pick one desktop or the other and run with it, I'd argue that this is not a particularly bad outcome. At least the user still does have a choice, even if both desktops look similar by default.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Greatest gift to the linux world???? (Score:2)
by Rahga (richardh@rahga.com) on Monday September 16, @09:52AM (#4265327)
(User #13479 Info | http://www.rahga.com)
I started out making this a long and winded post, but instead, deleted it and will just say this:

In my opinion, competing desktops will breed innovation and evolution. We need one unified desktop like I need a hole in the head. A few years ago, if all car makers joined forces to make one type of car, we'd all be driving a Yugo. If there was no Macintosh, we'd all be stuch with Windows 2.0 in the office.

I loathe people who want to treat everything as if it were a zero sum game. :)
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
A single desktop is trivial atm. (Score:1)
by Dark Lord Seth (jeroenvogelpoel AT hotmail DOT com) on Monday September 16, @09:52AM (#4265329)
(User #584963 Info)

What linux or any other open source program really needs are open sourced drivers so that a standard install procedure will recognize ALL (known) hardware found and with open sourced drivers available for download of non-standard hardware. (And that excludes cheap crap like nvidia pulls which taints the linux kernel.)

Unfortunatly, such an objective is out of the hands of the open source developers/zealots and within the capabilities of multinationals who are too shortsighted to open source their drivers and/or hardware specs. Besides, the desktops currently available still lie overtop a CLI and if you ever want Linux to have success as a Desktop OS, you need to get rid of the CLI first. Make a clear difference between desktop and other distros. Eliminate the damned CLI from the desktop ones, bind the kernel to a GUI instead. Desktop users do not want the GUI as basis, they want the GUI.

.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Does anybody realy care about two desktops? (Score:2)
by Jondor (gerhard@frappe.xs4all.nl) on Monday September 16, @09:53AM (#4265331)
(User #55589 Info)
Those who don't care, don't care. Pick a default desktop and make it as good as possible. Newbies use what you give them until they get a reason to disagree.

Those who care, do so for a reason and are not going to appreciate this unification stuff..
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Have your cake and eat it too? (Score:5, Insightful)
by d3xt3r on Monday September 16, @09:53AM (#4265332)
(User #527989 Info)
Everyone from Gnome and KDE who are complaining about Red Hat's excellent decision to unify the desktops for end user experiece really just wants to have their cake and eat it too.

The real reason everyone likes to have multiple desktop environments is for choice. The choice to develop applications with the toolkit of your choice. This is great because, as everyone loves to say around here, "this is what makes Linux great, choice and freedom."

But as with all choices to diverge, rather than unify, someone suffers. Up unitl now that has been the end user -- the person all this software was written for in the first place, or is it? KDE and Gnome are great, but they offer two different window kits, two different looks and feels, and two different user experiences. This is bad for the end user. If I am KDE die hard and want to use a Gnome application, I can, the only problem is that it's going to look and feel like a Gnome app on my KDE desktop. And if I was a Gnome user the above situation would be reversed, you get the idea.

The point here is that Red Hat has done a great service to the KDE and Gnome teams. They have taken two incompatible, entirely different desktops, and unified them for the benefit of the end user.

Let's not forget that Linux is about freedom not only for the developer, but for the end user. Well written applications are designed with the user in mind. If the KDE and Gnome teams want to contribute to the Linux/*nix community in a truly free and open maner, they will see this move for what it is: a change to allow developers to continue to innovate in the way they see fit, using the right tools for the job at hand, all while improving user experience. That's what it's all about. Right?

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Taylor presents his case well but issues remain (Score:2)
by hillct on Monday September 16, @09:55AM (#4265348)
(User #230132 Info | http://www.keepersoflists.org/ | Last Journal: Monday August 20, @09:52AM)
The arguments are presented in an articulare, well reasoned way. They are reasonably persuasive from a business perspective, both for Redhat and for promoters of Linux Desktop adoption, however I'd expect to see a rebutal from each of the KDE and Gnome projects vary soon; each of which will probably say the same thing, that they agree that their two projects should colaborate more to bring the look and feel into alignment, however it is not Redhat's place to undertake this.

If Redhat is to take this on, then other distributions of Linux will suffer due to their newfound 'inconsistency', and while this may be a reasonable approach for Redhat, it is something to be avoided from the perspective of the Redhat and Gnome projects since their software is provided with virtually all Linux distributions so in order to gain the greatest market penetration they should be acting in support of all distributions. I'm certain these rebutals will be ariving soon and I look forward to reading them.

--CTH
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Me Too :) (Score:1)
by Outland Traveller on Monday September 16, @09:55AM (#4265350)
(User #12138 Info | http://www.amergin.org/)
Redhat's unified desktop is a step forward. Since both desktop environments are customizable, users can still make them look and act any way they want. The choice is still there.

Now, the desktop environments will compete more on technical prowness than their default look, which is where the competition should be IMHO.

I hope that this decision helps unifiy the two desktop environmnents down the road.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Choice and Red Hat (Score:5, Insightful)
by Kourino on Monday September 16, @09:56AM (#4265353)
(User #206616 Info | http://slashdot.org/)

11 comments, and most of them are people grumbling about how Red Hat is squeezing choice out of the hands of the user. But really, is this true? What RH has done (from what I hear, I don't chase bleeding-edge distros, usually) is just change the way things look. They've provided a different default appearance. How is this worse from the default appearances provided by the GNOME and KDE teams? (RH's arguments for why it's better are in the article, you should read it :3 )

It's not like Red Hat is releasing modified versions of GNOME and KDE that don't let you customize the appearance; then, only then, would the complaints about choice be founded. The people who really care about the difference between GNOME and KDE probably do so on reasons deeper than 'the default theme looks cool'. (Personally, I don't really like either of the default appearances that much ^^; ) So, when nagora asks "If RH doesn't like this, why don't they drop the one they don't want people to use?" the answer is: they don't care what you use, but they want the defaults to look reasonably similar, because they know that people who really don't *want* their default theme either know how to change it or probably have settings that they'll import anyway.

Remember who Red Hat's intended market share is: the corporate environment. A lot of people I've talked to recently agree that RH's biggest 'ins' are (or should be) for office workstations. Lots of places implement a baseline standard that they want to look the same, but that people can customize if they want to (as long as they don't spend hours tweaking it). This is the mentality that RH seems to target. Yes, this isn't for everyone, but that's the point ... there are plenty [debian.org] of [gentoo.org] good [suse.de] distributions out there, and many [freebsd.org] more [openbeos.org] choices [apple.com] out there if you really really don't like it. But no-one said you have to use Red Hat. (Although I could understand concerns about RH-isms creeping into LSB, but nobody's brought that up.)

Remember, RH == vendor for corporate enviroments. Corporate environments like standard desktops, so this move makes sense in Red Hat's perspective.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
This will drive many people insane... (Score:4, Insightful)
by kris on Monday September 16, @09:56AM (#4265357)
(User #824 Info | http://www.koehntopp.de/kris/)
The idea is: What looks the same behaves the same.

Which is not the case with current Gnome and KDE. And probably never will be.

I have different desktop themes and backgrounds at work and at home for a reason. My mind and my fingers automatically switch passwords and procedures, because without conscious effort I recognize the different environment and switch to different trained behaviour. Also, the few Gnome programs I am using look decidedly different than the KDE stuff I am using, and this helps a lot. Looking different, I do not expect the Gnome stuff to operate like the KDE grouping around it, and automatically treat it differently.

Kristian
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Two points missed-- (Score:5, Informative)
by Speare on Monday September 16, @09:56AM (#4265358)
(User #84249 Info | http://www.halley.cc/ed/)

There are two points Owen didn't strike home with a sledgehammer, so I'll say them:

First, those users who already know they PREFER the "old look" of KDE or GNOME can configure their new Red Hat Linux 8.0/Null++ to regain that old look. The Red Hat "Bluecurve" work is almost entirely artwork and menu organization, both of which can be re-themed or re-edited by any user who wants to. This change is to remove a bewildering either-or choice that paralyzes many newcomers.

Second, Owen didn't mention that a huge area that BOTH desktops need to strive to improve is accessibility. It's vitally important for Linux to make inroads into the highly regulated Government sector. GNOME2 is laying groundwork for major gains in accessibility, thanks to partnering research by folks at Sun and other places. KDE needs to work hard on being accessible too. Features like Sticky Keys are just a start. Supporting limited-vision users and other areas is a must. Both desktops should do what they can, so that the best approaches can be adopted as standards.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
The reason for the bad feelings is... (Score:2)
by 10Ghz on Monday September 16, @09:57AM (#4265359)
(User #453478 Info)
That Red Hat pours alot of money in to GNOME, while they give hardly any support to KDE (in fact, they seem to refer KDE as "Crapland" (according to the Red Hat bug-report where they talked about renaming apps and removing the "About" box)). And now they seem to be turning KDE in to GNOME-clone. It's understandable that KDE-developers and users are less than enthusiastic about it.

FWIW: I'm a KDE-user but I support competition between the desktops. In fact, I'm going to give GNOME2 a shot in the near-future.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Um, the Box has a GUI? (Score:1)
by torpor (seclorum@@@mac...com) on Monday September 16, @09:57AM (#4265362)
(User #458 Info | http://www.access-music.de/ | Last Journal: Monday January 28, @12:03PM)
So, why are we making these changes? First off, the desktop is one piece of a larger Red Hat Linux product. Other components range from our configuration tools, to the applications we include, to our website, to the box that Red Hat Linux comes in. We believe that all of these components should look and behave consistently.


Umm... yeah right.

So, where's my little 'x' thingy for clicking when I wanna close that box and put it on the shelf (where it will collect dust for a year).

Do I go through a login prompt to get to the cardboard insert?

Sorry, I thought it was funny.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
This makes it RedHat (Score:2)
by ceswiedler on Monday September 16, @09:58AM (#4265369)
(User #165311 Info)
They're trying to make an OS called RedHat 8 which happens to be based on the Linux kernel and other free tools. I think it's a great decision on their part. It's very similar to what Apple did with OS X.

No one has a reason to complain; despite anyone's accusations, RedHat is still an open-source operating system. I personally wouldn't have a problem if they stopped giving away the OS for free via FTP. There's certainly no requirement that they do so. They are a company which has a product which they are trying to make money from. If you feel that RedHat is simply making money from other people's work, by packaging together free applications: go get those applications on your own, and make your own distro (or choose a completely free, volunteer distro like Debian). RedHat does an enormous amount of work assembling and testing those applications, and customizing them into a unified OS. They deserve to be paid for that work.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
How about this option? (Score:2)
by cluge (cluge@no_italian-cars_fucking_com.spam) on Monday September 16, @10:00AM (#4265380)
(User #114877 Info | http://www.italian-cars.com)
RH should include a default KDE and default Gnome desktop for those that want it (those of us that want it can handle the custimization). Call this an advanced set up feature for those that require it. I'm quite used to many of the KDE feature set personally, and use gnome apps in my desktop. If I cannot easily or reasonably setup a default KDE env, then I will go elsewhere for my distribution. I will also make that recomendation to others.

Consider this RH, I've been using your product since before 4.2, I've been paying for it since 6.2 (I felt you deserved my bucks) If I can't easily install my favorite WM during the install process, you will loose this customer.

cluge

PS: Yes, you have managed to cripple some of the neater features of both desktops or at least hide them, and you have also turned out an ugly compromise.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Good and Bad (Score:2, Insightful)
by Epeeist (Colin@murorum.demon.co.uk) on Monday September 16, @10:03AM (#4265397)
(User #2682 Info | http://www.murorum.demon.co.uk)
A unified look and feel is fine, as is a common mechanism to change it regardless of the underlying desktop system.

Where I think Red Hat have made mistakes (by incompetence, rather than malignly) is by modifying code rather than commissioning the GNOME and KDE teams to do it on their behalf. What they have generated are Red Hat GNOME and KDE desktops. In doing this they have antagonised developers and made both their own and the vanilla desktops more difficult to support.

They have also made maintenance more difficult, KDE 3.1 is due out shortly. This means that all the changes the RH put in place will have to be repeated. If they had engaged the developers in the first place this would have been much less likely to happen.

While there are mujahadin on both the KDE and GNOME desktops, the developers seem to have a relationship of friendly rivalry. By taking the lead on this RH could have facilitated better interworking between the two systems.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Unified is not necessarily a good thing... (Score:1)
by gothic_wolf on Monday September 16, @10:04AM (#4265399)
(User #73077 Info | Last Journal: Tuesday May 07, @04:21PM)
I like the diversity that Linux provides. I LIKE the choice. And I hope commercialization doesn't ruin that.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Hmmm (Score:1, Flamebait)
by hattig (spinningnucleon@nosPAM.yahoo.com) on Monday September 16, @10:10AM (#4265433)
(User #47930 Info | Last Journal: Sunday April 07, @02:29AM)
I thought the real issue was that RedHat had basically removed the KDE software options from the menus. So you didn't get the choice to run KMail, it was always Evolution, and so on.

The issue wasn't about changing the look of the desktops. The issue was making KDE just another interface for loading Gnome applications.

RedHat has always been pro-Gnome. Why don't they just ship Gnome only and leave KDE out of the default installation - that would create a single unified desktop.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Frustrated with Gnome? (Score:1)
by silverhalide on Monday September 16, @10:10AM (#4265434)
(User #584408 Info)
Play GNOME darts! http://www.vierkanteogen.nl/games/bouterdart/index .html?f=1.3 [vierkanteogen.nl]

Gotta run, I hear the karma police pullin up...

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
redhat desktop (Score:1)
by lazlow (_eth@excite.com) on Monday September 16, @10:15AM (#4265456)
(User #94602 Info)
The truth be told I use KDE, but I also use the tools that null defaults to (Evolution, Mozilla, Openoffice etc). I, for one, like what they have done. I do not believe that KDE or Gnome produce tools that are ready for prime time and that my productivity should not be stifled by the PURITY of a desktop.

If you do not want people screwing with your it should not be open source.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Sounds like debian.. (Score:1)
by dcstimm on Monday September 16, @10:17AM (#4265473)
(User #556797 Info)
Debian modified the way WindowMaker looks, they gave it a debian background and the menus are changed.

I hate how debian does this. I wish they would have never modified it. And they developers over at Windowmaker got mad just like KDE got mad that Redhat changed the look of KDE.

I think there should be a theme option in redhat that will allow Users to go back to the orginal KDE look and feel.

Since Gnome2 is the default desktop on redhat, things should look like it. Sorry KDE, but gtk2 is so nice.

Redhat uses anaconda (gtk2 based installer), mozilla gtk2, gaim gtk2, gimp gtk2, xchat gtk2, and many others. So it would make sense for them to use gnome2 as the default.

Also qt apps run slower if they are not running within KDE, kdeinit and dcop daemons need to be running for apps to launch quickly.

but i like how they made kde look.

kwin in my opinion works so much better than metacity.

In metacity(gnome2 default wm) you cant move or resize an app if its maximized. It gets really annoying if you "shade" an app and you cant move the shaded window around. REALLY annoying. (this isnt a bug its a feature)

but as long as the themes at kde-look.org work with kde in redhat, people shouldnt care if redhat modifies the look.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
common sources for graphics and icons (Score:2)
by iplayfast on Monday September 16, @10:18AM (#4265482)
(User #166447 Info)
I think that having comon sources for graphics and icons is a great idea. This seems to be the thrust of what Red Hat is doing. I don't know how often I've tried to find an Icon that is hidden inside of .directories for either kde or gnome.

I'm even thinking of switching back to redhat ;)

(currently a gentoo/mandrake dual boot user)
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
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