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  LinuxWorld diary, part two: Not for the fun of it  
Wednesday August 14, 2002 - [ 04:56 PM GMT ]   Print this Article
Topic - GNU/Linux
- By Robin "Roblimo" Miller -
Yesterday I ran into a kernel hacker I've known for several years who told me this was the most depressing LinuxWorld he'd ever attended. I wouldn't call this show depressing, but it is different from previous ones in many ways. (I'll be updating this story throughout the day, same as I did yesterday in part one.)

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Back in 1999 I wrote that Linux shows were becoming increasingly commercialized, and that one day they would be nearly indistinguishable in style from Windows-oriented "mainstream" computers expos. This day has arrived. My hacker friend was upset because this was the first Linux show he went to where he stopped by exhibitors' booths and talked to the people personning them about some of his great new ideas, and wasn't greeted with enthusiasm.

This is because the people running almost all of the booths this year are marketers, not engineers or coders. They are impervious to new technical ideas -- especially kernel thoughts -- especially if they are expressed by a guy who wears a beret backwards.

My friend's biggest lament, though, was that he didn't think people were here at LinuxWorld for the sheer joy of it. "Everyone I see here," he said, "looks like they're here because they have to be, not because they want to be."

I noticed this myself. This LinuxWorld is very well-attended, but it is the most sober one I've ever seen. There are not a lot of hippie hackers hanging out, and hardly anyone is wearing funny costumes. The combination Trekkie convention and Renaissance Faire feel a lot of early Linux get-togethers had is gone. This is a business gathering. Most of the attendees I've spoken to are here for professional reasons. Many have never been to a Linux conference or show before, and are here to shop for new technologies for the companies or government agencies that employ them. This is great news for the exhibitors, but not so great for people who simply love Linux for itself.

Open Source vs. the bottom line

Three different friends have reported that Bruce Perens is wandering around the show, telling people he doesn't expect to be with HP much longer. I didn't run into Bruce myself, and HP marketing and PR people I talked to say they wouldn't know one way or the other. It would be sad to see HP lose their native guide to the Land of Open Source, but I am wondering how much attention some of the latest crop of "Linux marketers" really want to pay to Open Source beyond lip service anyway.

Last night I went to a UnitedLinux press conference. Several times I heard executives from companies that make up this alliance talk about how there was a need for two Linux distributions. Just two. I couldn't help snidely interrupting with "Debian and which other?" which got a laugh from the audience (most of whom weren't journalists) but brought no response from the UnitedLinux execs. Then the UL people started talking about release schedules, and I asked a real question: How does this whole "release schedule" thing work into the traditional Open Source "it's ready when it's ready" concept? An obfuscated reply followed that didn't answer my question at all. I asked the same question again in slightly different words. This time the response was a little clearer: The Open Source "release early, release often" concept doesn't work in the world of corporate budgeting. Oh. Okay. Glad we got that straight.

But what really got the UL people going was when I asked about Sun as a potential competitor. I had just spent nearly half a day hearing Sun people talk about how they were going into Linux in a big way, how they had 20 years experience with Open Source, how they could offer totally integrated hardware and software solutions all the way from the desktop to the top of the enterprise. I wanted to know how this was going to affect UL -- especially this "there's only room for two Linux distributions" stuff. The UL party line went: Sun is new to Linux and we aren't. We have alliances with IBM and HP and others who will never ally with Sun. Sun might change its mind at any moment. Bill Joy, a Sun biggie, may not go along with Sun's Linux makeover. So we are, like, you know, going to, um, ignore Sun. They are not a factor in our plans.

Perhaps UnitedLinux will be able to (bizspeak alert!) leverage SuSE's excellent distribution, Caldera's reseller network, Conectiva's strength in Latin America, and TurboLinux's Asian language Linux expertise well enough to survive and prosper. Perhaps, if GE suddenly decides to convert all of their 17,000-plus corporate desktops to Linux tomorrow (UL execs actually mentioned this example) the combined UL companies will have the strength to pull it off. But then, so would Red Hat in partnership with IBM. Or Red Hat in partnership with Dell. Or quite possibly Sun by itself. I do not run UnitedLinux. I do not run Sun. I do not run Red Hat. I just watch and write about who does what. It looks like I'll many interesting Linux business conflicts to write about for many years to come, especially since UnitedLinux, Red Hat, and Sun are far from the only players in the Linux distro and commercial services marketplace.

It's all about the benjamins

I seem to be focusing on the business side of LinuxWorld and ignoring everything else. That's because the business side is dominant. CEOs are the main keynote speakers, and they are drawing huge crowds. No Eric S. Raymond speech, but Google co-founder Sergey Brin sure packed them in (and said nothing that any regular Linux.com, NewsForge or Slashdot reader hasn't heard before). I didn't make it to the Golden Penguin Bowl, a "geek vs. nerds" trivia game that would have been fun, because I was so busy interviewing business people. Fah. I'm no better than anyone else around here.

It's now 9:30 a.m. local time, Wednesday, and I'm still typing in my hotel room. I suppose I'd better put on a shirt and go to the convention center, not because I expect to have a lot of fun but because I'm getting paid to be there, just like almost everyone else at LinuxWorld this time around.

ThizLinux

Here's my choice: Go hear Oracle CEO Larry Ellison talk about whatever he's going to talk about, or play with a new (to the U.S.) distro called ThizLinux. I've heard more than enough CEO speeches in my life, so ThizLinux it is.

I'll give these Hong Kong people one thing right off the bat: Their modified version of OpenOffice loads lots faster than the "original" version, and has lots more fonts -- and I'm just talking about English/western fonts, not the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean ones. I played with a couple of the demo laptops the ThizLinux people ahd set up in their booth. This is, at first glance, a clean, smooth, attractive piece of work, based on a KDE frontend but even nicer. While I was there, a KDE developer wandered in, and he was admiring ThizLinux too.

I asked to have a review copy sent to my home so I can give it a real workout, but ThizLinux looks like it is going to be fun to test. Maybe the emphasis at the LinuxWorld is on servers, but there is plenty of life in the Linux desktop (mine seems pretty lively, anyway), and it's good to see another company doing some good work in this area.

Half of the reason I good to these shows is to meet people like ThizLinux General Manager Kevin Lau, a genial young man I think we'll hear more about in the future. There is a lot of new Linux activity going on in East Asia, and I don't think those of us who live and work in the U.S. or Europe know nearly as much about it as we should.

 

( Post a new comment )

The reality sets in      (#22615)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 12:13


Yep, it's hard to image that most of the corporate types who are looking at Linux are only concerned with saving themselves money, and don't give a darn about the social motives of the "free-software movement."

For shame, for shame.

Michael
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

A garden variety PC show      (#22616)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 12:26


but without Windows and (almost) without Microsoft. Hey, I'd take that.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

so this is bad news?      (#22619)
by DCallaghan on 2002.08.14 12:49   | User Info |


This is the current mantra... "Linux is ready for the corporate desktop. Linux is the best in the server room. Linux makes sense for businesses. Linux is in the mainstream. Big OEMs should dump MS and ship Linux. Smart companies use Linux. Linux is easy to use. Linux is accessible."

So then there's a big conference and businesses show up with marketing strategies and plans to do profitable business. People weren't dressed up like penguins talking about kernel hacking. They were just a bunch of profitable companies trying to sell Linux and corporate sysadmins seriouly evaluating their practical options. Don't like it? Be careful what you ask for.

I'm sure it was definitely more fun before when LinuxWorld was filled with Slackware users wearing Spock-ears and talking about kernel hacking. And there still needs to be an outlet for this since that's such a big part of this community and it shouldn't be allowed to die. I'm a Slackware geek with Star Trek memorabilia and I think it would be a terrible thing to not be able to have an annual Linux carnival and hear all the best geek talk. Maybe LUGs could have booths instead of corporations.

However, the largest, most public Linux convention has been turned into a mainstream computer show because Linux is a mainstream computer product. Its the least exciting show, but that doesn't make it the most depressing show. Its perhaps the most promising show.

Now we just need someone to organize an TuxFest without the booths and banners and high overhead to get that old feeling back. How about it, OSDN? ForgeFest 2003?
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Need a new show?      (#22622)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 12:54


So, does this mean that a new gathering needs to be created for the techies and geeks and hackers to take refuge at? Something designed not to discuss business, but to discuss Linux and Open Source. Oh, and have some fun still...but that goes without saying.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

True Reality NEEDS to set in.      (#22624)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 13:08


But the unfortunate reality that people so easily brush off is that for the majority of the known universe, things are driven by dollars and the bottom line. Just because you say Linux is better doesn't mean anyone believes you. Sure, a utopian view of things may work well in your house, but Pollyanna needs to earn a living too!

I wholeheartedly support Linux and believe open source is a great thing. But you can't expect corporate america to bring in a ton of Linux boxes just because someone suggests that there are "social motives" that they should be concerned about. Corporate america is driven by the bottom line. Period. End of story. It doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees with it, that's how it is. For the rest of us, who are apparently so much less socially concious, we get Linux in the door because we need to get a job done. Or don't have enough $ to cough up for another license and can do it just as well (better in some cases) with Linux.

To try and get the suits to change based on moral or social implications is ludicrous - why bother? The argument is a futile one - suits don't care about your social conscience. But get them to change by telling them they can save money and at the same time, get equivalent or better functionality by bringing in some tux-equipped gear, and you'll have a much better chance. Base your proposal on technology, not Anti-Gates garbage because again, suits don't want to hear about how Micro$oft is evil. They want to hear what you can do for them and how much it's going to cost. Support the cause in any way you choose, but don't delude yourself into thinking that people running businesses are social activists interested in taking a stand on moral grounds.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

we got a problem...      (#22627)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 13:26


I'm sad to see that this show is so bad too... I did'nt go to that show, it's too far for me, but for the last 3 years I had to go to the LinuxWorld in N-Y. The first 2 years I was impressed and excited by the show, but last february I was really disapointed. The expo was half the size of the year before and the half of the exibitors was boring. So when I read this article... I said, oh no not again.

I don't think it's the marketing or business side of the show that made it boring. But it's a consequence of it. Why ? Cause little companies or Open Source companies does'nt have the money or the ressources to go to a show that's now a world of business. There sould be a way to make the two world live together ! Think about that... Linux needs that two communities to continue and grow !

So, for me, the way to doing it well sould be that the next shows should be thought in that way, the way of serving the both worlds. I hope to see something like that in N-Y next year ;-)
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

from here...      (#22630)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 13:40


I predict one of two things will happen:

1. Companies will learn to make serious money developing products for Linux. Since GPL'd software is easily (and legally) cloneable by competitors, the trend will be towards closed source applications, or (more likely) a combination of closed and open source, to keep everybody happy (like Real Networks Helix), or dual licensing for commercial and non-commercial use (like Qt). There will be lots of entrepreneurial energy and ideas in this space.

2. If #1 doesn't come off for whatever reason (one could be the moral suasion of Mr. Stallman and his followers, attacking anything that isn't 100% GPL all around), then Linux will stagnate as a platform for business, and the action will move to another alternative OS such as BSD, or perhaps to one that isn't even on the radar screen yet (not HURD tho').

My 2 cents.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Is strange...      (#22631)
by bryam on 2002.08.14 13:45   | User Info | Home Page |


But we said someday (4 or 5 years ago) "Total World Domination". Today we have almost complete the way to the "TWD" for Linux and for the Open Source movement...but is dificult to assimilated it ;-)

Adriano Galano(bryam)
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

LWE dying, not Linux      (#22633)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 13:51


Way I figure is, Linux is becoming mainstream. This is good: without becoming mainstream, Linux can't achieve enough market share to beat Microsoft down from its monopoly position. Given enough time and power, Microsoft will come up with a way to keep Linux on the fringes, forever. Laws. Marketing agreements. Whatever. By becoming mainstream, Linux will give enough people enough of a stake in it to prevent that.

Meanwhile, there are still us geeks, who don't want to be part of the mainstream. And we'll probably stop going to LWE, which will be for the suits. Instead we'll go to kernel summits and such, and drink beer, and wear outlandish clothes, and feel at home. It'll work out.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

So, what did you expect?      (#22640)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 14:57


This is the way of the world. So, what did you really expect, Robin? You want attention, you want folks to use Linux, you want. . . everything. Now that you have it, the suits are involved and will run it, thank you very much.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

That's sad..      (#22642)
by warthawg on 2002.08.14 15:19   | User Info |


That's kind of a sad report, Robin. There has been a lot of fun at previous LWCEs. Keep up the reporting, you make me feel like I'm there with you.

See ya,
Joe Barr
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Now we reap...      (#22644)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 15:38


Now we reap the seeds that we have sown. Look, you "open-source" supporters, who pushed corporations to adopt Free Software because "it's cheaper," "it's got less bugs," "it's more secure!" Look at what happened!

You forgot why we create Free Software in the first place. It's because of freedom. The freedom to help your neighbour, and to be friends with each other. Are the UnitedLinux people your friends? Are Sun Microsystems your friends? Think long and hard about this; in the context in which these corporations operate.

Well, I certainly I hope that you're pleased with yourselves.

Simon
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Wanted: cooperation      (#22665)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 17:55


Robin's accounts are pretty much echoed at tuxreports.com. The kids that run this site with their dad have been pretty much ignored, even though they have press passes. If your a geezer like me [and Robin and Joe ;)], you'll remember that the IBM PC with DOS (or even CP/M) and GW-BASIC first caught on big with hobbists. Then the suits came--the rest is history. Now, Linux comes along and. . . As Alvira sez: "It's desa vu all over again".

What is needed here is a bit of cooperation-- maybe even a little synergy will develop between these disparate groups. If the hobbist/geek/suit all work together, Linux could take off even faster than if each went their own way.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Free for anyone      (#22678)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 20:00


Why stew about big corporations using GNU/Linux?! The premise of Free Software is that anyone can utilize it for any purpose they desire. As long as they respect GPL contributions by making their contributions available, then it's a win win. Open standards get stronger and more software is available to the world. The original ethics and spirit of the GNU/Linux community can still coexist while beancounter driven enterprise jumps on the GNU/Linux bandwagon. We all have different requirements and that is what freedom is all about.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Where, and who, are the orgs?      (#22680)
by garym on 2002.08.14 20:30   | User Info | Home Page |


Back at the turn of the century I tried to ignite a trade show movement to "pay homage to the orgs" among the trade show organizers and rising corporate stars. When asked my advice on the floor plan for Montreal's Expo and also for the Toronto show, I said "it all comes from the orgs, so put them in a pagoda, elevated, right in the center"

Sadly, show designers wouldn't listen to me. As the booths got larger and more glass&chromier, they pushed the orgs out to bare papered tables at the edges, out to the ghetto of the fair. I'd seen this progressively creep in at each Linux fest of the late 1990's after the last RedHat NC fest.

When I did my tradeshow hopping, I always made a point to sit in for the orgs. I'd take a turn at the LDP table, help out with SEUL, the LUGs or any other org that seemed short staffed, and I push my publisher to donate swag to them; I pressed every corp employee I met to do the same, to show support not with lip service, but by rolling up their sleeves and committing time to it.

I am proud of those who stood with me, and I will name them: Mandrake first and foremost as they had even sponsored people all the way from France to staff the LDP, RedHat also and ORA, but we must not forget IBM, HP, Compaq and Caldera, all of whom at least sponsored several opensource project or org tables each, some even doing time at the tables.

So to answer one of the questions posited here: Yes, we do have friends in the Linux-friendly corporations. I don't deny there are others as guilty as the show organizers for marginalizing the orgs. To be fair. though, there are also too many small vendors who think their time too precious to donate in homage to the orgs, and that is very sad; I can forgive a corporate drone who's just there as part of a day job, but the small vendor should know first hand how much they owed to the orgs.

So, I'm curious: Although there's obviously a business bent to this particular Expo, do tell us, where are the orgs in the floorplan? And especially do tell, who are the big corps backing them up?
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

personning?      (#22681)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 20:39


"...stopped by exhibitors' booths and talked to the people personning them about some of his great new..."

I read this and almost threw up. Truly, it ruined an otherwise good column.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

ThizLInux      (#22688)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.14 21:52


It should be noted that ThizLinux has been shipping on computers from Fry's Electronics (in the actual stores, not just the web site) well before the whole Lindows/Mandrake WalMart thing materialezed. Personally, I think Thiz is amuch better choice for a free OS than Lindows.
   
  As for the rest of LinuxWorld 2002...I haven't been impressed so far. I do appreciate teh companies with the balls to put a few geeks on the floor like AMD. Well, they're either engineers or really good actors, because they're presentations were the only ones I found interesting and intellectually stimulating. Thanks for not insulting my intelligence, AMD. HP can take their horrible improv skits and shove 'em.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

easy to fix      (#22701)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.15 3:06


perhaps we could take a hint from the demoscene. when demos started losing they appeal, the Assembly conferences started attracting more gamers and lamers.. so they created an "old-school" area for the coders and musicians and such.. it seemed to liven things up for them.

so perhaps the next linux world should have a separate area for all the hacker-types and a separate area for the sales-person types.

i mean, i realize that there is already a .org pavillion, but i'm sure there are a few not-so-corporate linux companies that would coexist with them nicely.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Thiz Linux + chaintech Motherboard      (#22704)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.15 4:12



Thiz Linux seems to be getting inside the box of a lot of hardware company unlike the other who are "partners" but not inside the hardware maker product. Thats a great + for them but they also sell with "per unit" pricing :

http://www.thizlinux.com/eng/solution.html

What brought them to me ( my attention ) whas this :

The Chaintech 7VJL Apogee Socket-A motherboard

There is nothing at the moment that come close to it Total package wise ...

Benchmark:

http://www.hothardware.com/hh_files/Motherboards/c haintech_7vjl.shtml

Whats in the box :

http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/articles.hwz? cid=6&aid=462

And they are also partner with ECS wich make the Desknotes ( the notebook you saw )

What I dont like is the fact that I havent find all the oem deal that they made , they seems to install on a lot of cool Hardware and I am wondering what I missed.

Moulinneuf
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Picture Galery      (#22705)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.15 4:19


Another stupid comment from me, Can you like get a Digital camera or Digital video camera next time you go to such event , It would be nice for the rest of us who dont get to go , Thx
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Monopolosoft      (#22707)
by Glanz on 2002.08.15 6:39   | User Info | Home Page |


Well Robin, there is nothing more boring than an expo populated with expounding OINKS, oh excuse me, I mean "Suits".... So, didja visit the Monopolo$oft booth, right across from the Lycoris booth? If you want to talk to Jason, give him a call in Redmond..... I'm sure he'll arrange something. The folks at Lycoris are the salt of the earth.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Win/Win      (#22719)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.15 8:23


Probably most of it has been said already but this is the way I see it:

It is good that the corporations are taking notice of GNU/Linux eventually. There is no way that it can become mainstream without corporate backing to some extent.

But all I have to say at this stage is thank God we have so much software published under GPL. I have no argument with corporations offering proprietary solutions, and I would probably buy them myself if they suited my needs. But I think the GPL is the single greatest asset the Open Source community has. What it means is that if corporations leverage off a GPL application, they have to be good corporate citizens and contribute back, or be condemned as is happening with Lindows at the moment.

I can see the community of developers using this license way into the future because it protects their interests as well as those of the community as a whole.

We may start to see a lot more commercial offerings for Linux, and I think it is a good thing because it offers people choice, but at the same time we don't lose our roots and the community spirit. If anything, we stand to gain because of corporate contributions back to code bases. And in the end, it is the maintainers of those code bases that have the final say on what will be merged back in, so if a corporation is producing sloppy code, we'll know about it.

And I think just such a situation will prevent a monopoly happening, and let corporations trade on a level playing field.

I'm very encouraged and excited by the corporate interest. I see it as a win/win situation.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

ThizLinux!?!?!!!      (#22777)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.15 16:50


ThizLinux sucks!. I put it on a laptop that it came bundled with. It wouldnt even boot, after dorkin around with it a minute or two i managed to get it up and running. Then it didnt detect all the hardware right. Plus the bootloader image is but ugly and completly unreadable. the socalled 'reworked' KDE is total crap too, it was just kde with a few different icons and a "ThizMenu"

I seriously dont recommend it. Especially after seeing how much they charge for the server version and their migration services. I wanted to hurl
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Warning!!      (#22813)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.16 0:32


Warning, DCallaghan is an M$ plant.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

about the modified version of OO.o / ThizOffice      (#22860)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.16 12:50


"... Their modified version of OpenOffice[.org] loads lots faster than the "original" version ... "

if they had modified some code in order to get that,
did they already submit a patch back to OO.o ?
(since OO.o is governed by LGPL/SISSL)

----

btw, OpenOffice.org project/product should always be written with ".org".
--> "OpenOffice.org" , not just "OpenOffice"
and its abbr should be "OO.o" or "OOo", not just "OO".

----
(from OO.o's FAQ
http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/faq-other.html#7 )

7. Why should we say "OpenOffice.org" instead of simply "OpenOffice"?

The trademark for "OpenOffice" belongs to someone else. Therefore we must use "OpenOffice.org" when referring to this open source project and its software.
----
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

"a guy who wears a beret backwards"      (#22887)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.16 15:07


How do you do that?
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

Truly disappointing...      (#22906)
by Anonymous Reader on 2002.08.16 17:53


I was looking forward to this Linux Expo. I arrived on Tuesday at 10:10am and by 2p I was underwhelmed and over-assaulted by the marketing blitz. The inconsideration of the HP demonstration while listening to an AMD discussion of hardware changes was exasperating. Unfortunately the situation was de rigeur for this expo.

I wanted to hear what Larry Ellison had to say on Wednesday, but I couldn't muster up the interest to get back on BART and leave the Eastbay for more Marketing dweeb warfare.

Perhaps I'm spoiled by the fact that I can wear my [dread] locks (Note: They are locks not dreadlocks. The "Dread" locks refers to a specific group of warriors who faught the Portugese towards the end of the African slave trade -- Mr. Enforced History) in a business environment with jeans and a t-shirt.

I got a few strange looks that made me feel as if I didn't belong. I wasn't a geek in a high school but I wasn't popular. This Xpo gave me that similar feeling...
[ Reply to This | Parent ]

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